sick / stressed fish?

[Cullymoto]

so... my 2 year old turqiouse recently went from alpha male to ... well... he looked like a fish with early stage discus plague... let me fill out the form here..

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started
2 year old Turqiouse. 6" maybe a little larger. one morning he had white "large spider web like" white mucousy patterns over roughly 40% of one side of his body. Added 2 new discuss from a very reputable LFS (an oxymoron I know... but this is a DISCUS store before it is anything else) these fish are quarantined before you can buy them... well you can buy them but you cant take them home until after they finish quarantine (i cant spell quarantine). All was fine with the new arrivals, slight pecking order establishment as to be expected, all are eating nice colors, breathing etc.
Was time for 50% WC, did my usual... full r/o water with KH boosted, discuss essential added, a little stress coat, cycle, perfect ph6.5, blackwater extract... gravel vac... same old same old.. next morning my 2 year old alpha male is covered in a white large spider web like substance.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)
didnt eat with the other fish (what made me go looking for him) hiding, white large patterned "spider web" like substance covering 40% of one of his sides. normal breathing, stress bars showing, but not totally black, still having pattern but with less color overall.

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.
immediately pulled him out to a 10G hospital, filled with tank water of same temp, air stone, heater, lid (no lights on) dosed with pima / melafix (all I had on hand) added acquarium salt 5ml. got some metro finally (stores closed over holiday weekend) and dosed him with that 2 days after initial pima / mela.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
125 gal lightly planted 6 months, (had this turquiose with his mate ((ocean green)) in a 30G for 18 months ) 7 discus total, 6 GBR's, 1 clown placo, 1 BN placo, 11 neons (was 12 but one became a snack)

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
30% a week, 50% once a month. tank has been running for 6 months, used old media, gravel, decor etc from old 30G setup that ran for 18 months. I age my water before W/C

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp ___27c - 80F__

- ph __6.5___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading ___0_

- nitrate reading __5 -10 ppm__

- well water ____nope

- municipal water ___yes (ran thru my r/o filter)_

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
2 new albino discus (red melon, blue diamond) from very reputable LFS / breeder.

8. status of sick fish / tank
he is doing better, the spider web has almost disappeared. still dark, still has stress bars, no apetite. Metro was added only an hour ago.

Tank is fine, all other fish are happy, healthy and eating well.... the Ocean green (his girlfriend) is clearly upset at his absence but is eating and playing with the others (she is now the biggest in the tank)

any thoughts? I have a pic of what the junk looked like (not on my fish but one I found online that had the same exact schmutz on him ... on a discuss plague page... please tell me it isnt plague.... can post the link in an update give me a few minutes.

[Cullymoto]

since I am too new here i need to get to 10 posts in order to post a link... lets count shall we!?

[Cullymoto]

#5

[Cullymoto]

#6

[Cullymoto]

#7

[Cullymoto]

#8

[Cullymoto]

I'm sorry, this is a pain in the buttocks.... *9

[Cullymoto]

*10.. will it let me link now? or after this one...
this is the link to a forum page with pics showing exactly what was on my turqiouse. scroll down to just above halfway down, blue diamond in the picture, the crap is all over its side. again, this spider web stuff has all but disappeared with the pima / melafix and salt in the hospital tank.
this photo is not my fish, just a visual reference of what my fish had.
I worked too fast to be worried about taking pictures.
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4766

[Eddie]

Well, from the description and pictures, looks like chilodonella but there are many external parasites that can cause the fish to produce excess slime. If its getting better, keep doing what you are doing. Adding the fish back to the main tank may cause it to outbreak again. Those other fish may carry the issue and not show it.

[Chicago Discus]

Well, from the description and pictures, looks like chilodonella but there are many external parasites that can cause the fish to produce excess slime. If its getting better, keep doing what you are doing. Adding the fish back to the main tank may cause it to outbreak again. Those other fish may carry the issue and not show it.

+1 the only thing i would add is get rid of the stress coat, black water extract and the cycle just use a clear or powder dechlorinator you really don't need that stuff JMO.....josie

[Cullymoto]

Well, the older turquoise isn't really doing any better... And I might have seen a small patch of the white web on my 2nd oldest fish this am... Haven't done anything with her and she is in the main track with the others still... I am getting concerned... Still thinking irs a parasite or no? Metro send to be having little to no effect on my turquoise..... If it if time to medicare the big tank, would it be acceptable to put my turquoise back in there instead of leeching him in the hospital tank? Any help our opinions would be appreciated.

[Cullymoto]

Bad spellin... Good ol auto correct on my phone... Sorry.

[Eddie]

Well, the older turquoise isn't really doing any better... And I might have seen a small patch of the white web on my 2nd oldest fish this am... Haven't done anything with her and she is in the main track with the others still... I am getting concerned... Still thinking irs a parasite or no? Metro send to be having little to no effect on my turquoise..... If it if time to medicare the big tank, would it be acceptable to put my turquoise back in there instead of leeching him in the hospital tank? Any help our opinions would be appreciated.

Hmmm, I'd hate to blast the main tank and unfortunately not many of your tank mates will handle the proper treatment. Plecos and neons can be quite sensitive to medications.

[Cullymoto]

the placo's and neons can go into the cleaned out and re-set up hospital tank, leaving the main 125 with discuss only (6GBR's in the hospital tank/ or left in the main to recieve treatment since they are also cichlids?) to be treated. I see no other way to knock this down ... I have only 1 spare tank. I can get my mits on a 28G tall... but that would still leave whatever this is alive in the main tank to re-infect once the discuss were healthy. and if it is best... the neons and placo's can be sacrfificed to save the discus. also, I do not know what this is exactly. thoughts?

[Eddie]

I dont what it is exactly but from the pictures showed as an example would lead me to external parasite. Many times when treating for external parasites, the fish can develop a bacteria infection so you may have to follow through with an antibiotic. What meds do you have on hand or available?

[Cullymoto]

the wife is at the LFS now, looking thru all they have. I am now away from home on shift and will be for a month... not good for the kids at home.... we can get our hands on anti-fungal (main ingredient acriflavine) we have metro, pima /mela. also could get a general anit parasitic med containing prazi.

[Cullymoto]

add to that aquarium salt of coarse

[Eddie]

If the fish appears like the picture, you will need to use something more aggresive like a Formalin & Malachite Green mixture (F & MG or Quick-Cure) OR Potassium Permanganate (PP). PP is tricky to use so if you have no experience using it, I'd go with Quick Cure or another product that contains F & MG.

[Cullymoto]

i managed to weasel out of work sunday, so saturday night i will drive home after work (5 hour drive after 12 hour day!) to do what i can with my kids, will also post current pics at that time and a progress report. In the mean time I have the wife move ahead with the general parasite clear (all I can get our mits on in such a short order, it is a 48 hour treatment) moving my turqiouse back into the community tank and getting rid of the neon / placo's. Will only be home for about 18 hours before I have to drive back up for monday shift but will be doing what I can when I can. Thank you Eddie for your posts here, it really is appreciated.

[Eddie]

i managed to weasel out of work sunday, so saturday night i will drive home after work (5 hour drive after 12 hour day!) to do what i can with my kids, will also post current pics at that time and a progress report. In the mean time I have the wife move ahead with the general parasite clear (all I can get our mits on in such a short order, it is a 48 hour treatment) moving my turqiouse back into the community tank and getting rid of the neon / placo's. Will only be home for about 18 hours before I have to drive back up for monday shift but will be doing what I can when I can. Thank you Eddie for your posts here, it really is appreciated.

Glad I can try to help. If you can only do parasite clear, then thats what you gotta do. Keep us posted on how things are going.

[Cullymoto]

time for an update.
By Eddie's recommendation I gave a treatment for chilodenella. I used a product "parasite gaurd" by tetra containing prazi, metro, and acriflavine. While this was not the most recommended treatment, it was the best option I had available to me. My original sick turqiouse is hanging in there with not much improvement noticable -no apetite - dark color but still has a little pattern on him - lethargic- stays up at the top of the tank near the filter outflow. His lady friend, the ocean green is dark - stays up at the top of the tank near the filter outflow - has little apetite - a couple small white Patches on her large bottom fin as well as where her large top fin meets her back- often darts, jumps, darts again than returns to her "spot" by her boy toy. When i dosed the tank with the meds 18 - 20 hours after dosing the water went cloudy (BB die off I assume) I monitored the water carefully and perameters were still good. However a third previously un-symptomatic fish took a massive step towards death. He went black, laid on his side at the bottom of the tank and was barely breathing. I took him out to the cleaned out and re-established hospital tank with clean water and no meds. he has made no changes since being moved, very slow breathing - dark color - no apetite - sitting at the bottom of the tank (in fact he has wedged himself between the tank wall and air stone (a bubble waterfall type stone) thinking he will likely not make it.... Did a waterchange and redosed the main tank, found what looked very much like tapeworms in the water change bucket. quite a few of them. never ever saw a fish with a worm sticking out, even watch them to see what their poops look like on a regular basis. so that was a little surprising. Picked up a microscope to have a look at some scrapes off the turq, and the ocean green. will make a post in the near future.

[jimg]

I would do 2-3% salt dips 1x a day( be very careful) 3 days, then furanase in clean tank 90%+wc's at each redose
imo bacterial /viral new fish not used too.
agree with josie loose the mela/pima and stress coat no good for discus
make sure all water is stable all the time

[PAR23]

I'm sorry to hear about your fish. It sounds like cross contaimnation to me and whatever it is, it is spreading fast. At this point I would hit them hard before you lose all of them.

You can either go with what Jim as recommended or hit the whole tank with PP. If you can't or am not comfortable using PP, then I would go with the salt dips. You can dose 2 tablespoon of salt per gallon up to 7 tablespoon per gallon to reach a 3% concentration of salt solution. I usually do 2-3 tablespoon per gallon.....let fish stand for up to 30 mins but immediately remove it if it starts to rollover and place in clean water......1 dip per day for total of 3 days. They will look terrible after each salt dip but it is to be expected.

As for you non discus fish....they will have to be treated as well unless you plan on keeping them in another tank as they will still carry the pathogens. Just note that they may not tolerate the treatment. Good luck

[Cullymoto]

too little too late for the 3rd victim, as he passed away this afternoon. He was too weak to hit with the salt bath, had him in a clean hospital tank and he passed away there unfortunately. RIP curious george... he was my only discus to eat from my hand. the other two that have shown symptoms are doing marginally better. The Parasite guard has run its single dose coarse, i have done 50% WC, added some carbon to the filter to remove the rest of the meds, and am giving them a little time to regain strength ( I hope ) before making any other treatments. my 4 smallest discuss are A -ok fine... happy healthy colorfull and eating better than ever before. the two remaining adults (breeding pair) still are dark (they were worse in the treatment) and are having periodic moments of darting / rubbing on items - tank - bottom - etc then right back to their spot where they are lethargic. there is some residual white film on those two, nothing at all like the spider web pattern this time, more like what chilodenella or a fungus looks like, however parasite guard should have killed any of that off (prazi +metro +acriflavin in one package with 2 TBS salt(30ml) per 10Gal in the tank ).. FYI i performed an autopsy on george. No gil flukes, no further worms in his intestines, no sign of fungus on his scales( thinking he died as a result of a bad reaction to the parasite guard (( several posts on the forum about the product killing entire tanks)). Also performed scrapes (microspcope) on the two adults and was not able to see anything in it that would confirm what the hell is going on.... from this point forward the wife is on board for daily 50% WC and carefull observation. Here's hoping that a clean tank will let the little fishy immune systems fight off whatever ails these guys. thanks for all your concerns. will keep posting as news develops

[Cullymoto]

p.s I have a supply of a med containing malechite green on hand should the need arise ( if it is fungal at this point) just seems like as soon as i diagnose and handle one issue, 2 more pop right up in their place... Sigh

[PAR23]

Sorry for your loss. The reason I suggested to hit them heavy was when I was battling this disease, every 4-5 days another one would should similar symptoms until I performed salt baths and afterwards relocating them to another sterile tank while the original tank was bleached overnight. This rotation occured over 3 days. It was a lot of work but I was able to save most of them. BTW, this was with near 100% rountine daily WC so it wasn't water issue. Good luck

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear, hope everything settles out and the others get better. I'm not a big fan of all-in-one medications such as parasite guard.

[Cullymoto]

time for an update.
I have been doing daily 50% WC with aged r/o water (this is what they are used to) even though I had a blowout of my storage tank... some crafty plumbing and carefull cleaning led to my tub becoming a temp storage solution... anyways...
the ocean green has made significant strides towards recovery. no more darting no more rubbing, appetite has returned with a vengance. still darker than usual but improving daily.
The turqiouse has not gotten any better or worse in the last two days, dark but still with a little color / pattern, an interest in food, but not eating, and still has cottony whit areas on his side, also one of his eyes has gone opaque white. I'm thinking it may be time to either run salt dips and / or re-set the hospital tank and treat with malechite green to deal with fungus / bacteria. thoughts on this?

on a side note, my young marlboro yellow has developed a few very small black dots, they do not look to be 3d, but similar to peppering on a PB. thinking he may have PB genes in him and is simply stressed over something.

For certain had a beneficial bacteria die off during the prazi treatment, so using cycle along with the W/C to re-establish BB quickly, also gave a thorough cleaning to the canister filter and replaced some of the media / polishing pad to help remove the extra phosphates left from excess organic matter in the tank. thinking this may be the cause of the marlboro yellow showing stress.

Any thoughts about my turqiouse, and opinions on the marlboro would be appreciated, current tank stats are as follows ;
ph - 6.5
gh - 0-5ppm
kh - 60-70
ammonia - 0
nitrite- 0
nitrate - 5ppm
temp 86 F (30C)
I also added another (3rd) airstone to help with 02 levels as the fish (all) seemed to be breathing a little laboured, since adding air stone breathing seems easier for them. Thank you all for your time.

[Eddie]

Marlboro anything is pigeon based so yes, its normal.

The other fish with the patches sounds bad off. A salt dip would help but you need to follow through with antibiotics. Also, Prazi doesnt affect nitrifying bacteria. Something else in parasite guard might but not prazi.

[Cullymoto]

any suggested med for follow up after salt dip Eddie?

[Eddie]

any suggested med for follow up after salt dip Eddie?

Furan based antibiotics seem to work best in my experience. Discus respond very well to it. If you can, try to pick up some Furan-2 or Furanase. Furanase is hard to come by these days but you might able to find it.

[Cullymoto]

another update.
Lost my marlboro yellow. He went off food about a day before he kicked the bucket... another autopsy with no identifiable parasites, or infections... he was clean, happy healthy one day. a few black spots the next, dead the third day. have been treating the tank with furan2 coupled with daily W/C of my aged (tested to ensure stability) r/o water. heck my gbr's are spawning the water is so bloody good... how can i have dying discus and gbr's happy enough to spawn in the same (medicated) tank?!?!
the Ocean green has made about a full recovery, and has asserted her dominance as the new alpha. Her mate, the Turqiouse, is barely hanging on to life (he was the first fish to show any issues, and has been sick/ half dead for 14 days and multiple treatments) and has not shown any sign of improvement. giving him a salt bath tonight, im thinking this will likely kill him in his current condition, that may be best to be honest... will finish the furan2 treatment either way, will give my turq. a daily salt dip until he needs it no longer (dead or recovered) he is in rough shape... fin rot, cloud eye, body fungus/bacteria, black in color, slow breaths, laying on the bottom... poor guy.
as always any hints or tips would be appreciated

[Eddie]

You used parasite guard to treat for external parasites and nothing else right?

I'm thinking the main ingredients in Parasite Guard have no effect on chilodonella. I've researched around the most effective chemical seem to be Potassium Permanganate OR Formalin Malachite Green mixtures and salt baths have some effectiveness. If you do perform a salt dip on that fish, DO NOT put it back in the main tank. See if you can get some Quick Cure and give it a go.

[Cullymoto]

another update.
My ram's are new / young and in a community tank, so they ate their eggs. if they continue to lay, i will move em to a 10G to play with them. Anyways...
my turqiouse is still hanging on, hasnt eaten in two weeks, has been extremely ill for just as long, has lost roughly half his fins due to rot, is nearly solid black, ... lets just say he could be the poster fish for "the big book of dying discus" .... poor guy.
He has been responding to salt dips well, up until tonights episode... he hasnt lost eqiulibrium in any salt bath, as he hasnt had equilibrium at all for a week... he comes out of quarantene on his side, he goes into the dip on his side... we have been watching the clock and his breathing to asses him during the baths. never more than 10 in airated water. His breaths during the dip are slow, but they do increase after about 4-5 mins. Tonight he did his usual, on his side, slow breathing... but after about 2 minutes he freaked out! bouncing off the pail sides, even jumping! figured he would do himself harm if left like that so out he came... most life i've seen from him in a solid 10 days...
now back in his hospital space he is upright and breathing. Upright on his own even, not wedged between the air stone and glass. perhaps thats a good sign? anyone ever had a sick fish WIG-OUT during a salt dip?
right now he is in maracyn(malechite green) with acfilavine meds and seems fine with the combo. going to try some metro laced food in the morning before a water change just cause...
the main tank seems just fine. the ocean green is now the alpha female, and she is busy asserting her dominance. since losing 2 fish and having 1 in a hospital tank my numbers are all wrong (4 discus in a 125) so the aggression is a bit more than it should be. Have added masive quantity of plastic plants to provide territory to break up sight lines and that has helped. Feeding time is pretty rough however. thinking about ordering some from a breeder close by, but with quarantine it will be some time before more kids can go in the tank... nothing i can do about that i suppose.

[Eddie]

Maracyn is actually Erythromycin, a gram positive antibiotic. The majority of bacteria infections in aquarium fish are gram negative. Are you adding acriflavine also?

[Cullymoto]

My mistake, it is "maracide" by mardel. sorry. and yes, I have an API product "liquid fungus cure" in with him as well, both to full strength with 50% daily w/c and a daily salt dip.

[Eddie]

My mistake, it is "maracide" by mardel. sorry. and yes, I have an API product "liquid fungus cure" in with him as well, both to full strength with 50% daily w/c and a daily salt dip.

Sounds better but no need for the acriflavine. Hows the fish look on the exterior?

[Cullymoto]

still with white areas on his sides, as well as around his mouth, why I think the fungus meds are in order. looks very similar to the pics i found of mouth fungus. Generally black body color (very slight pattern showing, with heavy black stress bars) his side fins (i dont know the proper name - the fins he uses for most movements) have been about 50% taken by rot but it has not progressed any further. Slow breathing, lethargic, and for days did little more than lay on the bottom.

[Cullymoto]

as well as a cloudy eye. missed that.

[Eddie]

still with white areas on his sides, as well as around his mouth, why I think the fungus meds are in order. looks very similar to the pics i found of mouth fungus. Generally black body color (very slight pattern showing, with heavy black stress bars) his side fins (i dont know the proper name - the fins he uses for most movements) have been about 50% taken by rot but it has not progressed any further. Slow breathing, lethargic, and for days did little more than lay on the bottom.

Its best to use one chemical at a time. Same thing as the Parasite Guard, let one chemical do its job. Malachite green has antifungal properties and combining with Acriflavine will not make it work better. You aren't really asking anybody for help, more or less just updating on what you've experimented with.