What is an acceptable daily pH change for discus?

[josenestor]

I have an established (3 months) decently planted 75g tank. Tank inhabitants keeping the tank going while I decide I am ready for discus are: 17 neon tetras, 6 corys, one blue-face aggazzi (peaceful south american cichlid) and 3 ottos. There are also about 15 olive nerite snails to complete the algae crew.

Tank parameters:
Temp: 84F
KH: 50 ppm as CaCO3
GH: 100 ppm as CaCO3
TDS: 176
NH3 = NO2 = 0
NO3 < 0.2
CO2 injection, continuous 24 hrs
Water Changes: Planning for 50% Weekly, RO/DI with tap water to maintain 50 ppm KH

pH daily ranges between 6.55 and 6.81

I have a solenoid on the CO2 and could put it on a timer. But so far I have felt it was not necessary to shut it off because pH could swing even more.

Dream is for 4-5 juveniles

Question: Is my tank's daily pH swing something discus would be stressed by or are pH swings natural and I should not worry.

Thanks in advance...

PS: I have read many threads regarding this topic and the answer seems to be to avoid large pH changes. I guess I am trying to be more specific.

[discuspaul]

You should be ok, BUT - here's the essential cautions:

You really need to consider increasing your wcs to at least 3 X a week (50% or more) to give you reasonable chances of success keeping discus, particularly in a planted environment.

You should ensure you get good-sized discus from an experienced, reputable/reliable source (try an sd sponsor) to get healthy fish to begin with, min. 3" in size, preferably 4 ", and get at least 5, if not 6 of them, to improve the social compatability and reduce the risks of serious pecking order/aggression issues.

Be very careful with your use of CO2 - If you can maintain your pH swings to what you have indicated, you'll be fine - but anything major - i.e. .6 to .8 or more in swing, occuring quite quickly, can cause problems.

And keep an eye on those Otos - they'll likely be fine with the discus, but on occasion, some may tend to take a liking to discus' slime coats as part of their diet.
Go for it, and I wish you success keeping these magnificent fish.

[josenestor]

Thanks discuspaul. I actually got an awesome deal on 4 discus I have been eyeying for 3 weeks at a local store. Walked out w a 4-5 in blue cobalt, 2 snakeskins 3.5 in and a royal blue 3.5 in. I felt great about the fish because I got to see them at the store and even asked to watch them feed. No mail delivery needed. They are in the tank and although hiding and not yet eating on the first day. They do look alert and healthy. Wish me luck keeping these guys going and thanks for the great advice.

[discuspaul]

As you likely know, they're a little stressed from the move to a new environment.
Be patient & give them some time to become familiar with their new tank, and comfortable with your routine around them.
May take several days before they calm down, lose their skittishness, and begin eating well.
They're a good size, but don't neglect large wcs at least 3 x a week, and a good tank/substrate cleaning each time you do so.

[cjr8420]

As you likely know, they're a little stressed from the move to a new environment.
Be patient & give them some time to become familiar with their new tank, and comfortable with your routine around them.
May take several days before they calm down, lose their skittishness, and begin eating well.
They're a good size, but don't neglect large wcs at least 3 x a week, and a good tank/substrate cleaning each time you do so.
start researching now raising discus in a planted tank,lfs discus, and bullying so when the problems start u have an idea why.and fill this out when they do http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete hope u dont need it but better safe than sry gl

[discuspaul]

Thanks discuspaul. I actually got an awesome deal on 4 discus I have been eyeying for 3 weeks at a local store. Walked out w a 4-5 in blue cobalt, 2 snakeskins 3.5 in and a royal blue 3.5 in. I felt great about the fish because I got to see them at the store and even asked to watch them feed. No mail delivery needed. They are in the tank and although hiding and not yet eating on the first day. They do look alert and healthy. Wish me luck keeping these guys going and thanks for the great advice.

Have you taken any pics of your discus yet- that you can post ?
Would be helpful to have a look at them - did you get them from an experienced, reliable source ?
Meantime, it woudn't hurt you to have a read of my Beginner's Guide to Discus, located here in the Discus Basics section, if you haven't already done so.
Here's the link:
www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus

[josenestor]

Thank you CJR for the link to the troubleshooting questionaire. I actually have come across it before and I think it is a great tool. Like you, I hope I do not have to use it either. I know there is controversy on this forum regarding UV. I was fortunate enough to have a UV from a previous life as a reef keeper. The UV has been running on the tank since setup. I am hoping that it helps with at least some of the potential problems. As for the rest of the issues, even though it has only been a few hours, I intend to keep a close eye on the fish to make sure nothing is out of sorts.

[josenestor]

Hi again Paul. I had a chance to read your wonderful guide. I wish I had read it before I got started. Fortunately, I believe what I have done so far is fairly close to your recommendations. One item that caught my eye was the need to wipe the glass to clean the slime. I had read this was important elsewhere but I thought it was just to get rid of the algae. Another source read it was important to prevent gill flukes??

The nitrates in my tank have been consistently super low (<0.2 ppm). I attribute this to the nutrient absorption of the plants. Some of the plants grow quite fast in my tank and act as a nutrient sponge. This is why I thought that a 50% wc weekly would be enough for my tank. I defer to your recommendation and concern. I am a single working dad and 3 wc/week may be unrealistic. However, I am going to try for 2.

I will take photos of the tank and the fish in the next day or so and I will post them here. I would love to hear your opinion and others as well.

All the best

[discuspaul]

Wiping the glass, which does get lined with the discus' shedded slime coatings, is simply another item in trying to keep a discus tank as squeaky clean as you can.
Your nitrates level is great, but that's not the only reason for doing large, frequent wcs - discus do far better when they're constantly provided with fresh, clean water.
Looking forward to seeing some pics of your tank & discus.
Don't hesitate to PM me anytime if you feel I can be of any help to you with your discus project.
Oh, and as for using a UV - I have run one in my planted discus tank 24/7 for several years, and truly believe it helps on many fronts. Go for it.

[nickfish39]

I have an established (3 months) decently planted 75g tank. Tank inhabitants keeping the tank going while I decide I am ready for discus are: 17 neon tetras, 6 corys, one blue-face aggazzi (peaceful south american cichlid) and 3 ottos. There are also about 15 olive nerite snails to complete the algae crew.

Tank parameters:
Temp: 84F
KH: 50 ppm as CaCO3
GH: 100 ppm as CaCO3
TDS: 176
NH3 = NO2 = 0
NO3 < 0.2
CO2 injection, continuous 24 hrs
Water Changes: Planning for 50% Weekly, RO/DI with tap water to maintain 50 ppm KH

pH daily ranges between 6.55 and 6.81

I have a solenoid on the CO2 and could put it on a timer. But so far I have felt it was not necessary to shut it off because pH could swing even more.

Dream is for 4-5 juveniles

Question: Is my tank's daily pH swing something discus would be stressed by or are pH swings natural and I should not worry.

Thanks in advance...

PS: I have read many threads regarding this topic and the answer seems to be to avoid large pH changes. I guess I am trying to be more specific.

Hi josenestor, congrats on the move to discus!
I really want to second everything discuspaul has told you. He is very wise.
One thing I would like to add that has always worked well for me in both the reef world as well as discus; As long as there isn't a greater shift than .3 (three tenths) in either direction in 24 hours you won't see any ill effects to your livestock.
I only add that because you mentioned you wanted specifics. And again, this is a number that has always worked for me. Someone else might have a different opinion.
Good luck in your journey!

Nick


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Tommo]

One thing I would like to add that has always worked well for me in both the reef world as well as discus; As long as there isn't a greater shift than .3 (three tenths) in either direction in 24 hours you won't see any ill effects to your livestock.

Remember pH is measured using a logarithmic scale. This means each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 x 10) more acidic than pH 6. This is also true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline than the next lower whole value. For example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 x 10) more alkaline than pH 8.

See thread:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?98010-Why-a-PH-drop-despite-aged-water-regular-changes-9dKH&p=915299#post915299 Post # 25

[josenestor]

Thanks Nick. I believe Paul was concerned with swings of 0.6 - 0.8. My swings so far are between 6.5 and 6.8. I do not have a data logger on the pH meter so I do not know if this range is 100% accurate. You have a narrower band of 0.3.

I do wonder if discus fish experience pH changes in nature as they are in a planted environment, susceptible to frequent large quantities of rain. and long evenings throughout the year (likely 12 hours of darkness). I will try to do some research on this. Any one out there who may know please chime in.

[josenestor]

Tommo. Thanks for the reply. I read your interesting post on pH swings.

It is almost impossible to keep a rock solid pH in a planted tank. As soon as the lights come on and plants begin to photosynthetize they begin to take up dissolved CO2 raising the pH. Maybe a pH controller is the answer. However, I have noticed that it takes time for CO2 dillution. Modifying pH with CO2 is not instantaneous and this makes it difficult to control with a machine. It seems that in my tank calcium alkalinity sets a bottom level for the pH which swings up from there with the daily tank functions (particularly plant activity and to a lesser degree fish waste-down). It seems to me that a pH controller will just turn off the CO2 if there is a pH crash for some reason. Would love to hear any opinions.

[pcsb23]

Thanks Nick. I believe Paul was concerned with swings of 0.6 - 0.8. My swings so far are between 6.5 and 6.8. I do not have a data logger on the pH meter so I do not know if this range is 100% accurate. You have a narrower band of 0.3.

I do wonder if discus fish experience pH changes in nature as they are in a planted environment, susceptible to frequent large quantities of rain. and long evenings throughout the year (likely 12 hours of darkness). I will try to do some research on this. Any one out there who may know please chime in.The vast majority of discus never see a plant in the wild - they do see a lot of roots and sand though. And pH swings of the order you are worried over are nothing at all to worry over.

[Tommo]

The vast majority of discus never see a plant in the wild - they do see a lot of roots and sand though. And pH swings of the order you are worried over are nothing at all to worry over.

+1. Lots of members on here seem to successfuly keep Discus in planted tanks. I however, like a simple life and prefer a bare bottom setup for lots of reasons. Best of luck - I'd just make sure to keep the substrate clean with regular syphoning . . .

[DiscusDrew]

I thank God every day for the lack of substrate and plants in my fish room/ hatchery lol. My life would be hell. Of course my setup is built for production, not necessarily asthetic value. Anyway, I wouldnt worry about the ph shift you mentioned, it is minimal, but in general I would say the more consistency the better, if you have the ability to regulate it very closely, which it sounds like you do, I see no reason in not doing so. I find consistency to be key with discus, water changes, good feeding schedule, etc, all very important to the health of your discus. Ageing any tap water you use is beneficial, and if you are using your RO and mixing it with Tap, I have always prefered run the tap through a filter first. In my setup when I use RO (which I only use during short periods right before they spawn until right after the fry go free swimming) I use pure RO and reconstitute with salts. Reason being this is more consistent and precise. Water is exactly the same each and every time. Then after the fry go free swimming its straight back to aged tap water. I would prefer most people not mess with RO unless it is absolutely necessary. Not that it CANT be done, but its just one more thing that in the world of GROWING OUT discus, is not necessary. Best of luck with your new set-up. Unfortunately I do agree with CJR and wish more reading had been done previously, quality stock is awfully hard to find in a LFS. And quality stock is the main in ingredient in successful discus keeping.

[cjr8420]

The vast majority of discus never see a plant in the wild - they do see a lot of roots and sand though. And pH swings of the order you are worried over are nothing at all to worry over. do u have any experience or proof to back up this statement "The vast majority of discus never see a plant in the wild ".my common sense tells me this is 100 percent wrong

[josenestor]

To some extent I understand the need for bare bottom tanks to maximize growth of discus and promote health. I however have been keeping fish most of my life. All of that time I have disliked anything plastic in a tank such as decorations and plants. I have not been to South America. But I grew up in the Caribbean and have been to Asia and Central America. Nearly all water ways I have seen are rich in plant and animal life (unless polluted, of course). I do not think the end result of my experience with discus (assuming I can keep them alive) is going to be show quality fish. However, I do think I may have a shot a tank that with a combination of drift wood and live plants resembles to the extent I can afford my understanding of the discus' original environment.

When I was a reef keeper I was told many times I should keep a bare bottom tank for similar reasons to the discus. I debated with myself and others about this. In the end I opted for the most natural environment I could recreate and I was blessed with a beautiful system for many years where many species thrived.

As I watched my fish navigate between the amazon sword leafs and pick live brine shrimp between the anubia leafs (they are not yet eating flake, but could not resist the wiggly salties!!) it somehow felt right.

Tomorrow will be their first water change...

[Tommy Saville]

I've decided on a half-and-half compromise, which I've not seen mentioned before. I've always liked planted tanks, look so much more natural, and I set up my Discus tanks that way, force of habit. All the plants are along the rear of the tank, behind a row of rocks..Next water change, I'm going to remove all the gravel in front of the rocks (the proceedure will probably send the fish very skittish for a while!). This will give me a good bare-bottom area, easy to hoover BH bits and poop. And still able to enjoy the plants in the gravel behind the rocks.. And probably better water condition between changes. Do I hear a little ripple of applause????? LOL

[Tommo]

I've decided on a half-and-half compromise, which I've not seen mentioned before. I've always liked planted tanks, look so much more natural, and I set up my Discus tanks that way, force of habit. All the plants are along the rear of the tank, behind a row of rocks..Next water change, I'm going to remove all the gravel in front of the rocks (the proceedure will probably send the fish very skittish for a while!). This will give me a good bare-bottom area, easy to hoover BH bits and poop. And still able to enjoy the plants in the gravel behind the rocks.. And probably better water condition between changes. Do I hear a little ripple of applause????? LOL

I've seen this type of system employed in some LFS - a piece of glass approx 3 in high siliconed along the back of the aquarium. This forms a 'trough' approx 3" h x 3" w along the full length of the tank that holds gravel and nutrient for the plants. BTW clap, clap clap . . . ;)

[Herbicidal]

I have a solenoid on the CO2 and could put it on a timer. But so far I have felt it was not necessary to shut it off because pH could swing even more.I learned from a good friend of mine and a VERY successful planted tank enthusiast (jcardona1 over on PlantedTank.net) that the CO2 does not need to run 24x7. He set his previous systems up so the CO2 is turned off about 30 minutes before the tank lights go off for the night so the plants can consume the remaining CO2 in the aquarium. Then in the morning, the CO2 is turned back on approximately 30-60 minutes after the lights go on. This delay gives the plants time to start the photosynthesizing process. When it's dark, the plants are not photosynthesizing, so no need for the CO2 to run and you increase the risk of CO2 poisoning of the fish.

[Tommy Saville]

Thanks for the applause ! I just did the deed. The fish actually behaved themselves. Fed BH and the residue was tiny and easy to syphon off. I think it will be an improvement.