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View Full Version : Please help!! Sick discus - possible bacterial infection??



Duckesd
09-26-2012, 10:00 PM
DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Current problem is that all discus are grouped extremely tightly in the corners of the tank, darker strains of fish are heading towards black and some fish are floating sideways/upside down. This is what's happened...

After losing multiple batches of try to sickness even though their tanks/water were in top condition, it was recommended to us that we need to 'clean up' the breeding pairs first. We have roughly 300 discus in total, so this was looing like a very big job. We decided that since no one had any particular health issues, it would be easiest to treat all of the breeders together in our large 6 foot tank - don't have exact numbers as I'm at work but there's roughly 25 large adult discus in the tank.

We started with a course of PP treatments, and the fish looked great afterwards. We decided they needed a bit of a break after that before de-worming started, so left them for about a week. We then discovered that a pair we had in another tank by themselves which had been in quarantine since they'd been sick since arrival, had actually come from the same tanks (from the supplier) as a pair we now have in the 6 footer with all our other fish!!! We've been treating the other pair with metro as all symptoms pointed to hex and it was recommended to us. Here and there we started to see some mucousy white poo's in the 6 foot tank, so knowing that all of these fish had now been exposed to the same disease, we thought it would be best to treat sooner rather than later, and began treating them with metro which is where the trouble started. As has been recommended, I upped the temp to about 30 celsius, and dosed them with 400mg per 40 litres of metro (we were told you can dose up to 500mg), every 24 hours for a total of 2 treatments (50% water changes in between). On that second day a couple of the fish weren't looking too good - they were tilting sideways and a few were huddled up in the corners. We decided to stop the metro straight away as it was looking bad and I was worried that something else could be going on. By the following day, all of the fish were tightly huddled in the corners, and some were going black and titling completely sideways or upside down, and some of their slime coats look cloudy.

After talking to a few people we know in the discus world they said it sounded like a bacterial infection, and that we should treat with salt and possibly an antibiotic. Bacterial kinda made sense as I'd turned the heat up for the metro, so if there was any bacteria that would have given them an excellent chance to proliferate. The most broad antibiotic I had on hand was oxytetracycline so in that went - I know now it may have been a bad idea but seeing that many fish in that state just made me want to act. We dosed with rock salt at 1 tsp per 10 litres, and also the oxytetracycline (dont have dosage rate on me as I'm at work but will fill in later). The oxy has gone in twice now, 24 hrs apart for the last two days - we have not done anything so far today and the fish look terrible. After keeping discus for roughly 2 years with no serious health issues this is really freaking me out.




2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

As above - huddling tightly together, floating sideways, clamped fins, going dark - generally look like their on deaths door.






3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Medications started with PP at 2ppm every 3rd day for 3 treatments - fish looked great at this stage.
Next was metro at 400mg per 40 litres, for a total of two treatments, 24 hours apart with 50% water changes in between - it was after the second treatment the fish started to look really bad and we stopped immediately and did a large w/c.
Next was oxytetracycline (started 24-48hrs after finished metro - don't have my log book in front of me as I'm at work but can confirm tonight) I think it might be 1 gram per 100 litres but will have to check at home. We've added this the last two days along with salt at 1 tsp per 10 litres, and did a 50% water change between each dose.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

Tank size is 6x2x2 foot, it's been running for approx. 6 months since fully cycled, but we recently had to take the cannister filter off, so have been running sponge filters during treatment with large water changes to keep parameters safe. For treatment (not usual stocking levels) it's got roughly 25 large adult discus (again, will have to confirm exact numbers tonight).



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

We've been changing 50 - 70% of the water daily, using water that has been aged, aerated and heated overnight. Barebottom tank.


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____ 28 degrees celsius currently (was up at 30ish when we did metro)

- ph _____ 7.5

- ammonia reading ____ 0

- nitrite reading ____ 0

- nitrate reading ____ 0

- well water ____ no

- municipal water ____ yes

I know the zero levels seem a bit unbeleivable, but I re-tested and they are all zero so our water change regime is obviously keeping up.


7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No brand new fish, one fish was added into this tank roughly 3 weeks ago for the treatment period - however he's only new to this tank. We've had him in a separate tank with his mate for roughly 3 months and he's been fine.



I know that was a huge amount to read through, but would appreciate any and all advice. First thing I need to know is if we should keep up the antibiotics this afternoon or stop treatment completely? We spend our entire lives taking care of our fish so it would be devastating to lose any - I just want to save them and get them back to their usual happy selves.

Duckesd
09-26-2012, 10:02 PM
I should also mention that we did the exact same metro treatment on a tank full of sub-adults who had been exposed to the sick fish (before we knew they were sick) and there have been no ill effects whatsoever - that tank is all fine so I'm thinking it has to be something like bacterial and the metro was a coincidence??

Eddie
09-26-2012, 10:06 PM
It sounds like you added a pair to the group AFTER the PP treatment correct? So in the other words, the pair never received the PP treatment?

Duckesd
09-26-2012, 10:16 PM
Hi Eddie thanks so much for your quick response! sorry if I haven't written it too clearly, the newer fish that went in there did go in after the PP treatments were done, however I did PP them in their own tank first, just wanted to add them in for the worming treatments as it would be easier to do them all together.

Eddie
09-26-2012, 10:26 PM
Hi Eddie thanks so much for your quick response! sorry if I haven't written it too clearly, the newer fish that went in there did go in after the PP treatments were done, however I did PP them in their own tank first, just wanted to add them in for the worming treatments as it would be easier to do them all together.

Okay, just wanted to make sure. This sounds like a reaction to maybe an overdose or a viral infection. It definitely doesn't sound like the oxytetra is helping. Did the fish start floating sideways after the the oxytetra treatment? Any chance you can get your hands on Furan-2 or Furanase?

Duckesd
09-26-2012, 10:34 PM
They started going sideways etc before the oxy - right after the metro treatment. Unfortunately I don't think I can get those meds here in Australia. I've searched but get no results whatsoever.

Do you think we should keep up the oxy? I've heard it can be bad not to finish a course of antibiotics so not sure what to do there.

Eddie
09-26-2012, 10:44 PM
They started going sideways etc before the oxy - right after the metro treatment. Unfortunately I don't think I can get those meds here in Australia. I've searched but get no results whatsoever.

Do you think we should keep up the oxy? I've heard it can be bad not to finish a course of antibiotics so not sure what to do there.

This is generally accurate as you can create resistant bacteria but its not something you can't treat with another type of antibiotic. This is a tough call, seems like the right thing to do is follow through with the antibiotic treatment. Is there ANY improvement at all with the fish floating sideways?

Duckesd
09-26-2012, 11:27 PM
I've just come home from work and they do seem marginally better, although in saying that they still look as though their about to Kark it :( mostly seem to be facing upright though which is quite a difference from this morning when they were all sideways so I guess that's positive

Eddie
09-26-2012, 11:34 PM
I've just come home from work and they do seem marginally better, although in saying that they still look as though their about to Kark it :( mostly seem to be facing upright though which is quite a difference from this morning when they were all sideways so I guess that's positive

I would maintain the oxy treatement, temp 28C, extra air added to the tank. If you perform water changes, always remember to add the antibiotic to the tank prior to filling, NOT after you've filled.

Duckesd
09-27-2012, 12:46 AM
Thanks Eddie will keep it up then, from advice I've been given it seems a 7 to 10 day treatment is necessary, how many days would you recommend?

Also do u think we should keep up with the salt or just oxy?

Duckesd
09-27-2012, 04:42 AM
Update on these guys condition, I've had their tank covered as I beleive oxy deteriorates in the light. After pulling the covers right off I can see that a few of the fish look to have fin rot - they certainly didn't have this a few days ago and a couple of them now also have little fluffy balls of fungus on their sides like tiny balls of cotton stuck to them.

Overall approximately 50% of the fish have stopped huddling tightly in the corners but they still look really bad, the rest are still tightly bunched. This is so devastating to see, if anyone has any further advice given the new symptoms I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks

Eddie
09-27-2012, 09:10 AM
Update on these guys condition, I've had their tank covered as I beleive oxy deteriorates in the light. After pulling the covers right off I can see that a few of the fish look to have fin rot - they certainly didn't have this a few days ago and a couple of them now also have little fluffy balls of fungus on their sides like tiny balls of cotton stuck to them.

Overall approximately 50% of the fish have stopped huddling tightly in the corners but they still look really bad, the rest are still tightly bunched. This is so devastating to see, if anyone has any further advice given the new symptoms I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks

Maintain the oxy for 10 days and keep the salt as well. Might increase the salt to 200 grams per 100 liters. A Furan would be able to deal with the fungus and bacteria.

Duckesd
09-27-2012, 05:25 PM
Thanks Eddie, I'll keep searching and see if I can get my hands on some furan but doesn't look like it so far - the fish aren't as tightly huddled this morning which is good, one fish looks like he's about to give up poor guy - ill update on their condition when I get home from work this arvy

Eddie
09-27-2012, 07:03 PM
Thanks Eddie, I'll keep searching and see if I can get my hands on some furan but doesn't look like it so far - the fish aren't as tightly huddled this morning which is good, one fish looks like he's about to give up poor guy - ill update on their condition when I get home from work this arvy

Glad to hear the fish are somewhat responding. Hope the one pulls through. Keep us updated

Duckesd
09-27-2012, 11:18 PM
Ok just got home from work and they're looking pretty bad, one has died :(( they're still spread out and not so tightly huddled though. I've also noticed a couple scratching themselves on the heaters, and the fungus seems to have spread a bit more but they aren't behaving as freaked out as they were before.

Eddie
09-28-2012, 12:25 AM
Ok just got home from work and they're looking pretty bad, one has died :(( they're still spread out and not so tightly huddled though. I've also noticed a couple scratching themselves on the heaters, and the fungus seems to have spread a bit more but they aren't behaving as freaked out as they were before.

Sorry to hear about the loss. If they weren't improving, I would more than likely recommend another hit with an external parasite treatment. It might be something to think about. Just watch them to make sure they do not regress.

Duckesd
09-28-2012, 01:47 AM
I'll be keeping a close eye on them, if they don't start improvIng would you suggest something like pp or a specific parasite medication?

Eddie
09-28-2012, 01:25 PM
I'll be keeping a close eye on them, if they don't start improvIng would you suggest something like pp or a specific parasite medication?

I'd go for another round of PP but be patient on them. If they regress than retreat. Keep trying to get a hold of some nitrofuran based antibiotics. Something like Nifurpirinol would be best.

Duckesd
09-29-2012, 09:21 PM
Hi Eddie, the fish are still looking bad - probably about the same which is good and bad I guess. What would be the earliest point to stop antibiotics and go for pp instead? I don't want to stop antibiotics too early incase I create some resistant bacteria, but I've been speaking to a lot of people and doing heaps of reading and they all think it sounds like discus disease/plague and are mainly suggesting the pp too.

I now have fish in 3 other tanks that look like they may be starting to get sick with the same thing :( I'm thinking I'll try the pp with them first then salt?? How many treatments and how many days apart should I do the pp?

I'd really appreciate any further advise.

Eddie
09-30-2012, 07:06 AM
You can stop now but you will have to have a different antibiotic on hand after the PP treatment. I've never had to do consecutive PP treatments but I've read of people doing them every 4 or 5 days.

The discus "plague" is merely an infection of multiple issues, parasite and bacteria.

Duckesd
10-02-2012, 03:10 AM
Ok thanks, I'm not familiar with too many antibiotics, can you suggest a couple so I can see what's available here? I'll probably have to order some.

Eddie
10-02-2012, 05:36 PM
Ok thanks, I'm not familiar with too many antibiotics, can you suggest a couple so I can see what's available here? I'll probably have to order some.

Try to some type of Nitrofuran

Duckesd
10-03-2012, 09:23 PM
Ok quick update, this has now spread to multiple tanks in our garage as well as two in the house. I don't know how it can spread like this if it's a mixture of parasites and bacteria???

The sick fish have all started to look really 'beaky' - cant think of a better word to describe it but they look like they have a parrots beak rather than the beautiful shape they were before. I don't know what causes this but I'm hoping they'll be able to recover from it. In general the ones we started treating look slightly better but no where near well.

What would you suggest as a first course of action for the other tanks which are getting infected? PP first? So far I've only given them salt, today was the first day they've started looking really bad so I'm sure they've caught the same thing.

Eddie
10-03-2012, 09:39 PM
I'm sorry to the hear of the news. This a really tough call. You have to be 100% sure that this is not related to your water. I won't tell you what you to do, do what your gut tells you. If its viral, it could be something that jeopardized the immune systems of the fish allowing any/all parasite/bacteria to overwhelm the fish. If you decide to treat, PP would a good choice but follow through with a more aggressive/effective antibiotic. Get some Furanase, its truly amazing stuff.