Which one is better?

[quangfee]

Hi, please tell me which one is better?
I always age my water for 24 hrs to 48hrs then dechlorinate it for 20 to 1hr before I do wc
Or age the water and dechlorinate it just for 20 min before wc?
Thank you

[Chicago Discus]

Hi, please tell me which one is better?
I always age my water for 24 hrs to 48hrs then dechlorinate it for 20 to 1hr before I do wc
Or age the water and dechlorinate it just for 20 min before wc?
Thank you

I dechlorinate when I fill the age tank, works for me not sure if its better. :)....josie

[Eddie]

I also dechlorinate upon filling.

[quangfee]

Thank you Josie and Eddie, So how long do you guys age the water before wc

[Poco]

+1 to Josie and Eddie.

I age water for 24hrs.

[Brent1972]

I would age the water but add prime 20 mins before filling the tank , the reason for this is as the water has chlorine in there will be no bacteria growth in your storage tank.

[quangfee]

Thank you for all of the replies. Has any one aged water up to 2 days or 3?

[lipadj46]

Do you guys have chloramines? If your water has only chlorine why are you dechlorinating aged water?

[Brent1972]

Do you guys have chloramines? If your water has only chlorine why are you dechlorinating aged water?

Yes I have Chloramines in my water So as I think you know ageing water will not remove these , But if I did not and only had Chlorine I would still add prime because it does more than just remove chlorine. The reason most people age water is not to remove chlorine its to remove co2 to make the ph stable.

[Eddie]

Do you guys have chloramines? If your water has only chlorine why are you dechlorinating aged water?

Chloramines also....you might have been able to answer that one on your own. lol

[lipadj46]

Yes I have Chloramines in my water So as I think you know ageing water will not remove these , But if I did not and only had Chlorine I would still add prime because it does more than just remove chlorine. The reason most people age water is not to remove chlorine its to remove co2 to make the ph stable.

I have just chlorine and aging removes it no need to add safe/prime for any other reason.


Chloramines also....you might have been able to answer that one on your own. lol

Well brent mentioned chlorine in the post above so I was curious. Also I know we have quite a bit of OCD on this site, just seeing how far folks are pushing things...

[Eddie]

I have just chlorine and aging removes it no need to add safe/prime for any other reason.



Well brent mentioned chlorine in the post above so I was curious. Also I know we have quite a bit of OCD on this site, just seeing how far folks are pushing things...

Yeah...I'm guilty of having A LOT of OCD.

[Brent1972]

Yeah...I'm guilty of having A LOT of OCD.

I would rather have OCD than Dead Discus :)

[Eddie]

I would rather have OCD than Dead Discus :)

Precisely!

[quangfee]

Yes I have Chloramines in my water So as I think you know ageing water will not remove these , But if I did not and only had Chlorine I would still add prime because it does more than just remove chlorine. The reason most people age water is not to remove chlorine its to remove co2 to make the ph stable.
+ 1
One of the owner at my LPS told me about this also

[lipadj46]

But if I did not and only had Chlorine I would still add prime because it does more than just remove chlorine.

Coming from a chemistry background I don't believe in the boogie man (metaphorically speaking). What is in your drinking water (besides the obvious chlorine and amines) that prime is going to help with that will harm your fish? I don't buy the heavy metal argument either.

[joanstone]

I use a mixture of RO and tap and try to keep my water barrels ready to go with heated, aerated water so in some cases my water has been "aged" for days.

[Brent1972]

I don't buy the heavy metal argument either.

Well I do , Have you ever had your water tested ?? As you come from a Chemistry background you should know that most water supplies are different .

[lipadj46]

Well I do , Have you ever had your water tested ?? As you come from a Chemistry background you should know that most water supplies are different .

I don't need to have it tested as cities in this country are required to provide water tests usually they are online. If you are on a well that's a different story, we had our water tested when we had a well

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[quangfee]

I use a mixture of RO and tap and try to keep my water barrels ready to go with heated, aerated water so in some cases my water has been "aged" for days.
I'm sorry. What is RO stand for? :)

[Eddie]

Reverse Osmosis.

[quangfee]

Reverse Osmosis.
I c, thank you

[fdlacy]

I would age the water but add prime 20 mins before filling the tank , the reason for this is as the water has chlorine in there will be no bacteria growth in your storage tank.

I used to dechlorinate in the aging barrel, but I always got some bacteria growth and such in the barrel. Since I stopped doing this, the barrel is much cleaner due to the presence of the chlorine until it gasses out. I should note that I did not add Prime/Safe to the barrel right before using which is probably why I was having that issue. I also used to not do daily large water changes so water sat in the barrel for 1-2 days. Any way, i think it can work either way, I just would not add dechlorinator to barrel until shortly before use.

Darren

[Brent1972]

I used to dechlorinate in the aging barrel, but I always got some bacteria growth and such in the barrel. Since I stopped doing this, the barrel is much cleaner due to the presence of the chlorine until it gasses out. I should note that I did not add Prime/Safe to the barrel right before using which is probably why I was having that issue. I also used to not do daily large water changes so water sat in the barrel for 1-2 days. Any way, i think it can work either way, I just would not add dechlorinator to barrel until shortly before use.

Darren

For breeding I now use RO with re-min If the water is going to sit in the barrel for more than a day I add Kusuri Chloramine T and that stops bacterial growth, I use a plastic spoon and add a very very small amount . just the tip of the spoon .

[lipadj46]

I used to dechlorinate in the aging barrel, but I always got some bacteria growth and such in the barrel. Since I stopped doing this, the barrel is much cleaner due to the presence of the chlorine until it gasses out. I should note that I did not add Prime/Safe to the barrel right before using which is probably why I was having that issue. I also used to not do daily large water changes so water sat in the barrel for 1-2 days. Any way, i think it can work either way, I just would not add dechlorinator to barrel until shortly before use.

Darren

Yeah the chlorine does help kill of bacteria, I also pp my water barrel and hoses every so often.

[Orange Crush]

I would rather have OCD than Dead Discus :)
+1

[Tommy Saville]

Sorry to add to this post, but the discussion re ageing water began to get me worried. My tap water goes through 3 filters; one removes chlorine and its -amines etc., then it's through a nitrate-remover filter, then through an HM filter. I store the filtered water in a plastic butt for 24 hours, heated to 86F, before pumping it into the tank for water changes. Should I add an airstone? Or anything else? Will bacteria build up in the butt? Would you experts class the water as "aged"? Need your advice please....

[MudK]

Sorry to add to this post, but the discussion re ageing water began to get me worried. My tap water goes through 3 filters; one removes chlorine and its -amines etc., then it's through a nitrate-remover filter, then through an HM filter. I store the filtered water in a plastic butt for 24 hours, heated to 86F, before pumping it into the tank for water changes. Should I add an airstone? Or anything else? Will bacteria build up in the butt? Would you experts class the water as "aged"? Need your advice please....


Tommy

I am by no means an expert, but in my experience the sole purpose aging water is to stabilize water chemistry. Often times there will be significant differences from pre to post aging. Having stable water conditions is one of the most important parts of fish keeping. From your description, it sure sounds aged, but all that really counts is how successful you have been in rearing your fish. As for bacteria just rinse the butt out every once in a while with regular water.

[Tommy Saville]

I've only been keeping Discus since June this year, and I've had a few problems due to inexperience, but these have been solved. My fish are doing fine, so the water must suit them ! I was a bit concerned that I could maybe improve things even more by aerating the storage butt.

[Brent1972]

I've only been keeping Discus since June this year, and I've had a few problems due to inexperience, but these have been solved. My fish are doing fine, so the water must suit them ! I was a bit concerned that I could maybe improve things even more by aerating the storage butt.

You need to add an airstone tommy , this will remove the c02 and make the ph stable.

[Tommy Saville]

You need to add an airstone tommy , this will remove the c02 and make the ph stable.
No problem. Although I haven't seen any pH changes. The CO2 is a good point..thanks, will do.

[MudK]

You need to add an airstone tommy , this will remove the c02 and make the ph stable.

+1 offgass that co2 !

( somehow i missed that question, sorry)

[aalbina]

No problem. Although I haven't seen any pH changes. The CO2 is a good point..thanks, will do.

Tommy - if you're filtering your water through all that and them letting it sit for 24 hours with a heater, I call that aged! I would capture a glass full of water and test the pH coming out of the last stage of your filtration process. Let that same sample sit for 24 hours and re-test. If there is no change in the pH in 24 hours then the only reason to age your water at that point is to get it up to temperature. An airstone does nothing but circulate the water. A powerhead would accomplish the same thing.

Adam

[Brent1972]

Tommy - if you're filtering your water through all that and them letting it sit for 24 hours with a heater, I call that aged! I would capture a glass full of water and test the pH coming out of the last stage of your filtration process. Let that same sample sit for 24 hours and re-test. If there is no change in the pH in 24 hours then the only reason to age your water at that point is to get it up to temperature. An airstone does nothing but circulate the water. A powerhead would accomplish the same thing.

Adam

I use RO and Re-Min The ph Is 7 , When I Add air for 12 hours it drops to 6.2 , as said before you need to gas off the c02 .

[Tommy Saville]

Tommy - if you're filtering your water through all that and them letting it sit for 24 hours with a heater, I call that aged! I would capture a glass full of water and test the pH coming out of the last stage of your filtration process. Let that same sample sit for 24 hours and re-test. If there is no change in the pH in 24 hours then the only reason to age your water at that point is to get it up to temperature. An airstone does nothing but circulate the water. A powerhead would accomplish the same thing.

Adam
I've tested the pH already, at the interval you suggest, and there's no difference in pH.

[aalbina]

I've tested the pH already, at the interval you suggest, and there's no difference in pH.

Then there is no reason to age your water after it comes out of your filtration system - there is obviously no cO2 left to "gas off". If there was - you would absolutely see a change in pH. So however long it takes you to heat your water to temp is the amount of time you have to wait before you have useable water for your tank.

Adam

[Brent1972]

I've tested the pH already, at the interval you suggest, and there's no difference in pH.

Tommy test the Ph again after you have added air for 24 hours .

[Tommy Saville]

I use RO and Re-Min The ph Is 7 , When I Add air for 12 hours it drops to 6.2 , as said before you need to gas off the c02 .

I've just installed a big airstone in the storage butt (had to go out and buy an extra airpump!), and it's bubbling away nicely. I'll test the pH again tomorrow and see if there's any change. Maybe it will drop? I don't want to see the pH go up ! It's already high at 7.6 !

[Brent1972]

I've just installed a big airstone in the storage butt (had to go out and buy an extra airpump!), and it's bubbling away nicely. I'll test the pH again tomorrow and see if there's any change. Maybe it will drop? I don't want to see the pH go up ! It's already high at 7.6 !

Tommy I would not worry about your ph to much as long as its stable its fine , I've kept Asian discus in a PH of 8 and they were fine .

[Tommy Saville]

Then there is no reason to age your water after it comes out of your filtration system - there is obviously no cO2 left to "gas off". If there was - you would absolutely see a change in pH. So however lpong it takes you to heat your water to temp is the amount of time you have to wait before you have useable water for your tank.

Adam
It takes overnight (about 12 hours) to heat the water from "cold" to 86F. But I keep the heater on longer than that so that the temperature is OK for water changes "at my convenience".

[aalbina]

I use RO and Re-Min The ph Is 7 , When I Add air for 12 hours it drops to 6.2 , as said before you need to gas off the c02 .

Brent - I don't disagree. You are absolutely right - if YOUR pH drops .8 after 12 hours then that is clear evidence that the carbonic acid in your water is breaking down making the water less acidic. So YOU certainly need to age your water (as do I, by the way, for the exact same reason), the OP, however, apparently does not as his water chemistry is different than yours and mine. He states that he tested his water after 24 hours and the pH did not change. He does not, therefore, need to age his water in order to break down the carbonic acid dissolved in the water. Aging his water will have no benefit in this regard.

Adam

[Brent1972]

The reason I'm telling Tommy to try this is I lived in Nottingham in the UK so I know what his water is like , When I was there I had to age my water . There is no harm in testing and I agree with you Adam If there is less than a .4 change I would not bother either.

[Tommy Saville]

The main reason I decided to store the water was to have heated water ready for changes. I wasn't specially thinking about ageing (because of the filtration it was going through). Then, reading this thread, and noticing that the water in the butt was virtually stagnant, I got to thinking about aeration. Not about pH or CO2 ! So the ensuing discussion has been very interesting and I'm grateful for the informative posts ! Always willing to learn.

[Tommy Saville]

The reason I'm telling Tommy to try this is I lived in Nottingham in the UK so I know what his water is like , When I was there I had to age my water . There is no harm in testing and I agree with you Adam If there is less than a .4 change I would not bother either.
Brent, that's interesting news ! I had a shop and warehouse in Beeston from 1950 to 1970. Supplying fish nationwide, but not Discus . In those days the pH was 7.0, but various influences have changed it over the years.
Just for interest, I'll test in the morning...thanks for your help - although I bred and imported literally millions of tropical fish I had no real experience of Discus until this year. You have been very helpful.

[Tommy Saville]

Tommy test the Ph again after you have added air for 24 hours .
Now reads 8.2 !!! I had no idea that aeration would do that. No more aeration for me, thank you ! I wonder, if I leave this butt-ful without aeration, will the pH get back to 7.6??

[Eddie]

Now reads 8.2 !!! I had no idea that aeration would do that. No more aeration for me, thank you ! I wonder, if I leave this butt-ful without aeration, will the pH get back to 7.6??

You actually want to aerate the water so it will match the tank water.

[aalbina]

Now reads 8.2 !!! I had no idea that aeration would do that. No more aeration for me, thank you ! I wonder, if I leave this butt-ful without aeration, will the pH get back to 7.6??

Aeration isn't the issue. The issue is the movement of the water exposing it to the surface air where the carbonic acid breakdown is largely taking place. This is happening when you put the water in your fish tank. So the pH is changing when you put the water in your tank anyway and the fish have to deal with it. Better to age, heat and aerate to breakdown carbonic acid (CO2) before you put the water in your tank.

It's a natural process: aeration, or movement, and heat is simply speeding it along. Water in a fish tank with fish tends toward acidity as hydrogen ions are lost - so over a few days without water changes your tank will likely drop a bit in pH. What is the pH of your discus tank before you do a water change? It's likely at or slightly lower than 8.2 - the water you add from the butt-ful needs to match that to within .2 - .4 - more than that will weaken your fish immune systems over time.

So your UK buddy was dead on - you need to age your water with heat and water movement for 24 hours.

Adam






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[Tommy Saville]

I switched off the aeration of the storage butt today at 9a.m. and at 7p.m. the pH was 8.4. At the same time, the pH of the aquarium water (which has constanrt aeration via a sponge filter, by the way) was 7.4 - the last water change being 2 days ago. I'm not going to use water with a pH difference of 1.0, for water changes ! So I will discard that water, do no more aeration of the storage butt, and continue as I was doing beforehand. Sorry, Adam, it seems that what you say about aeration doesn't work with my set-up .....

[aalbina]

Ok Tommy - I hope it works out for you. You might want to check into the chemistry if you have time. As I said, pH tends toward acidic in a fish tank - exactly as you have seen when you checked the 2 day old water in your fish tank. If you do no water changes the pH will continue to drop.

Aeration doesn't cause the pH to go up - it allows the pH to rise more quickly to a point of stability or equilibrium - an equilibrium that will occur in your tank whether you believe it or not - it's basic chemistry.

Best if luck.

Adam

[Tommy Saville]

Ok Tommy - I hope it works out for you. You might want to check into the chemistry if you have time. As I said, pH tends toward acidic in a fish tank - exactly as you have seen when you checked the 2 day old water in your fish tank. If you do no water changes the pH will continue to drop.

Aeration doesn't cause the pH to go up - it allows the pH to rise more quickly to a point of stability or equilibrium - an equilibrium that will occur in your tank whether you believe it or not - it's basic chemistry.

Best if luck.

Adam
I'm trying to not get into an argument, but I've just tested the pH of the filtered heated non-aerated water that's been stored overnight (as used for all water changes). It's 7.6, as near as I can get to the pH of the aquarium water, which is still 7.4. Certainly better than using water that's 8.4 !
I didn't say that I don't believe your point that the aquarium water will alter to an equilibrium. But my tests show, to me, that aeration of the storage tank sends the pH up. Overnight from 7.6 to 8.4. Non-aerated, no overnight change. If aeration doesn't cause the pH in the storage tank to go up, what did?

[Tommy Saville]

One thing I haven't mentioned, is that the water coming from the tap into my filter system, has a pH 7.6. So the filtering doesn't change the pH.

[Eddie]

I'm trying to not get into an argument, but I've just tested the pH of the filtered heated non-aerated water that's been stored overnight (as used for all water changes). It's 7.6, as near as I can get to the pH of the aquarium water, which is still 7.4. Certainly better than using water that's 8.4 !
I didn't say that I don't believe your point that the aquarium water will alter to an equilibrium. But my tests show, to me, that aeration of the storage tank sends the pH up. Overnight from 7.6 to 8.4. Non-aerated, no overnight change. If aeration doesn't cause the pH in the storage tank to go up, what did?

7.6 is fine. Its only .2 and its going up and not down. Fish generally take rapid ph increases easier than decreases.

[aalbina]

I'm trying to not get into an argument, but I've just tested the pH of the filtered heated non-aerated water that's been stored overnight (as used for all water changes). It's 7.6, as near as I can get to the pH of the aquarium water, which is still 7.4. Certainly better than using water that's 8.4 !
I didn't say that I don't believe your point that the aquarium water will alter to an equilibrium. But my tests show, to me, that aeration of the storage tank sends the pH up. Overnight from 7.6 to 8.4. Non-aerated, no overnight change. If aeration doesn't cause the pH in the storage tank to go up, what did?

Tommy,

It's probably just semantics here - I come from a scientific background and causation is a very specific thing. You are basically correct in saying that aeration is causing the pH to rise. Technically, however, it's not 'causing' the pH to rise it is simply acting as a catalyst the accelerates what would occur normally over some period of time. The period of time it takes for your water to reach a stable equilibrium with the CO2 in the air is dependent on the several factors. The most significant one is likely the carbonate hardness (KH) which is an indication of your waters buffering capacity.

So it simply takes some time for your water to reach equilibrium with the surrounding air whether it's in your holding barrel or your tank. The pH in your tank is buffered by many things: KH, number of fish, filtration, presence of plants, how much water you change at a time etc. I suspect you're simply replacing the water in your tank before it has time to gas off. So you probably don't need to worry about it unless you happen to go on vacation for a week or so - and then you may find that the tank is closer to 7 and the aged water is above 8. Then you could just dump the aged water and start over.

I'm also not trying to argue with you Tommy - I'm just conscious of other folks reading this who may be interested in your results as it applies to them. I just don't want folks thinking that aeration of water in a holding barrel is ever a bad thing.

Adam


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[Tommy Saville]

OK Adam, I appreciate your thoughts on this discussion. This next sentence may make you smile....70 years ago (I'm 88) I took a B.Sc. degree in zoology and botany. So I too was some sort of a scientist. But it was a long time ago and many of the facts have long gone from my memory (one problem of being ancient.). I know that it is the movement of the water surface that helps the pH change and not the airstone itself. The water doesn't normally stay in the storage butt for more than 2 days (I change 50% of the water twice a week in 2 aquaria) and for vacations I have a neighbor [note the USA spelling!] whom I've taught how to do water changes. So if I continue as normally, the fish should continue to be OK. I'll back-check with the water company and see if I can get info on hardness. Thanks so much for your input.

[Tommy Saville]

The water company info re hardness is as follows: Clark Hardness 7.00, French Hardness 10.00, German Hardness 6.00. Which of those is applicable? Conductivity figure is 292.52 (if that's helpful?).

[Tommy Saville]

No comments came in reply to my last posting...I would be interested to know how much the hardness factor affects pH etc........

[Wes]

I don't need to have it tested as cities in this country are required to provide water tests usually they are online. If you are on a well that's a different story, we had our water tested when we had a well

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code
Chicago Tribune storyIn April 2009, Michael Hawthorne achieved all information regarding the contaminated water from the whistleblower, Tricia Krause. She had done research since 1999 seeking to find answers as to why her children were plagued with life threatening health issues for now more than 20 years. She had given Michael a large box of documentation which showed incriminating evidence and he then wrote a Chicago Tribune an investigative article titled "Poison in the Well" reported that the water from a well used to supply residents with drinking water had been contaminated with chemicals (including two linked to the known carcinogen perchloroethylene) from dry cleaning solvents. Despite warnings from the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) 22 years earlier, Crestwood village officials sent annual assurances to residents that their drinking water was safe.[8]

The story reported that in 1986, after the Illinois EPA had told them that Municipal Well #1 was contaminated, Crestwood officials had promised to start drawing all of their water from Lake Michigan, and to use the contaminated well only in emergencies. Instead, the well remained in use until December 2007. In 2007 the well was tested by the Illinois EPA for the first time in 20 years. The EPA also learned at that time that the well was still in regular use. Residents were not notified of the contamination by the Illinois EPA, the Illinois Department of Public Health or by the village.[8]Although the Illinois EPA claimed that they discovered the "illegal and secret" use of the well in late 2007, they never notified the residents of Crestwood that they had been drinking contaminated well water for more than twenty years. Who do we trust???????

[aalbina]

No comments came in reply to my last posting...I would be interested to know how much the hardness factor affects pH etc........

Hi Tommy - sorry for the delayed response. My son got married this week and I've been out of town. The numbers you got from the water company are hardness numbers (GH) - your water's buffering capacity would be affected more by the alkalinity or KH.

Adam

[Tommy Saville]

Hi Tommy - sorry for the delayed response. My son got married this week and I've been out of town. The numbers you got from the water company are hardness numbers (GH) - your water's buffering capacity would be affected more by the alkalinity or KH.

Adam
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought high pH values denoted alkalinity. I don't know the term KH, could you explain?

[aalbina]

Alkalinity is another commonly used term for KH (carbonate hardness). Usually the term basic is used for the pH scale. Both are certainly correct - basic and acidic in terms of pH provide less confusion with terminology in my experience.

Adam

[aalbina]

Here's a link that gives an over view of KH.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate_hardness

Adam

[Tommy Saville]

Here's a link that gives an over view of KH.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate_hardness

Adam

Thanks for the link. It mentions German hardness as being carbonate hardness and called KH. The water company report gave a German Hardness figure of 6.00 - is that their KH figure?? These jargon-type names are so confusing....

[aalbina]

I think they are giving you total hardness in GH. You can buy a test kit that measures KH but If it were me I'm pretty sure given your water and test results that it's not something I would worry about. Your water is consistent enough water change to water change that your fish are healthy - why worry about it.

Adam

[Tommy Saville]

I think they are giving you total hardness in GH. You can buy a test kit that measures KH but If it were me I'm pretty sure given your water and test results that it's not something I would worry about. Your water is consistent enough water change to water change that your fish are healthy - why worry about it.

Adam
I guess I'm always striving for perfection if possible, hence the worry. Mainly hoping to avoid health problems with the fish. At my age I'm all for a quiet life! (I shouldn't have started keeping Discus, I hear someone say!!!) However, your reassurances were very helpful.....

[Orange Crush]

I guess I'm always striving for perfection if possible, hence the worry. Mainly hoping to avoid health problems with the fish.....
As far as the health of your discus are concerned perfection is consistancy of water perameters not the water having specific pH/KH/GH.

[Tommy Saville]

As far as the health of your discus are concerned perfection is consistancy of water perameters not the water having specific pH/KH/GH.
OK I've finally got consistant water perameters......I think......so I'm probably near to perfection?? 12 fish that look and feed OK, one pair is even spawning every weekend.(But eat the eggs, maybe that's not perfection.).
For the first time in my long fish-keeping life I've had to concern myself with various water conditions. I had my first tropical fish (Dwarf Gouramis) in 1936, aged 12. Water heated by a spirit lamp under the slate-bottom tank. Ended up with 80 tanks in the garage. For 30 years (1950s/60s/70s) I was in the trade, importing and breeding hundreds of thousands of tropical and coldwater fishes in Cheshire UK. The tap water was pH 7.0 and wasn't chlorinated etc etc like tap water is today.
Every shipment I sent out was in water straight from the mixer-tap at 78F. Never lost a fish ! We had a fabulous reputation re supplying top-quality fish.
In my private aquaria at home I never changed the water - the theory then was "Let the tank mature by itself". The more "mulm" on the substrate, the better ! The fishes seemed to live for ever !! And now I'm changing water at least twice a week and fighting chlorine, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and all the other perameters.
Sorry about the mini life-history, but I hope you can understand how new it all is, after a 30-year lay-off making enough cash to afford keeping the "king of fishes" !

[aalbina]

What a great history! I have a lot of respect for you taking this on given your history. Beat of luck - your experience will serve you well.

Adam

[roclement]

Great story! Things haven't cahnged much at all, clean, stable water, and good food = happy fish! Enjoy your discus!

Rodrigo

[Tommy Saville]

You're very kind, thanks for your good wishes. I'm 88 but not too old to learn ! Tommy