David's Breeding Timeline

[David Rose]

In an effort to document the sequence of events that may be helpful to others that have a pair that they would like breed and raise their fry, I will use this thread to log information, pictures, and videos of my experience with this process from the time pairing behavior began to growing out the fry to adulthood. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but am willing to share what I've learned from other great Simply Discus members, breeders, and hobbyist along the way.

Should you have any questions, need clarification, or wish to offer comments or offer suggestions that will add to this timeline, please feel free to send me a PM or post to my companion discussion thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75468.

Thanks in advance to all though who have or will contribute to this thread, so that others will hopefully have a source to refer to when it comes time for them to give the breeding experience a try.

Kind Regards,
David

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Pairing Behavior:

For me, pairing behavior between two of my adjult discus in my 140G community tank began in early October 2009 when I observed my 7" Silver Pigeon Blood and my 6" Red Gold Diamond spending the majority of their time together. At this point, I didn't know which was male or female, but this became obvious in the coming week.

The other actual behaviors that I began to observe were the two selected an area in the tank (their spawning site) where they spent their time cleaning in a pecking like motion. This happened to be on one of my two Mega Flow Overflow chambers, but it could have easily been any clean surface that they chose. Along with the cleaning, I would see the two both shimmy and shake periodically and if any other fish came near this spawning site, they would chase them away to protect their area of the tank.

Sometimes, there may be a competing male or female and you may notice the contender being chased away or even fighting to various degrees. Normally, they should work this out for themselves without the need for intervention.

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Spawning:

Once the female and/or male have prepared their spawning site having cleaned it as mentioned earlier, they will stay close to the spawning site and face in its general direction.

These sites can be most any smooth surface such as the filter intake tube, driftwood, plants, decorations, or even the glass walls or bottom of your tank. Some folks use terracota "breeding cones", 6" terracota gardening pots inverted on the tank bottom, PVC tubing, a long piece of slate rock or other similar items to provide something other than the glass walls of the tank.

If you decide you are ready to breed your discus and raise the fry, there are a number of things that you will want to do in order to prepare.

1) You will want to separate your pair into a tank of their own for maximum chance of success away from other fish and this tank should be 20-30G size and preferably used as a bare bottom tank for ease of maintenance.

2) You will want to purchase 2 sponge filters of adequate size along with an air pump. These are preferred as they are safest for the young fry and inexpensive. You will need to cycle these filters, which will take approximately three to five weeks depending on whether you start fresh using a fishless cycle or seed them from an existing tank that is already fully cycled.

3) Depending on your water parameters such as pH, TDS (total dissolved solids), GH, and KH you may need to use RO (reverse osmosis water) to have suitable water conditions for breeding. If your TDS is too high, eggs may turn white quickly after being laid. I keep my TDS around 30 using RO water.

4) I keep my pH at about 6.7.

5) Water temperature will impact development timelines. I keep my water temp at 84-85F, but 86F is preferred.

6) In general, pH, GH and KH ranges can vary, but typcially fall in the ranges below:

*PH ideal 5 to 6.5 range 4 to 8
*GH 0 to 10, ideal 2 to 6
*KH 0 to 10, ideal 2 to 6
(*contributed by pscb23)

For my choices, I used a 46G bow front tank as my breeder tank, bare bottom, and added two 4" sponge filters, performed a fishless cycle and I added a 6" terracotta pot in the hopes my discus would use it. Please note that you should block the drain hole at the bottom of the pot to prevent food, eggs, or wrigglers from getting trapped. I used a piece of left over plastic and silicone to seal mine shut.

Other useful links:

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/breeding_genetics/spawning/inducing_spawning.shtml

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

You have EGGS:









The spawning process from the time the female starts to lay her eggs and the male fertilizes (milt) them can take 1 1/2 to 2 hours from my experience. Once completed, one or both parents will stay with the eggs almost constantly to protect them from other discus (should they still be in a community tank) and or fan them in order to keep the eggs warm and clean.

If you have a young pair, one of the parents may eat the eggs. This is common and it may take time for them to develop their parenting skills. You may also choose to add a protective screen to prevent this from happening. The screen can be left on until after the wrigglers detach and become free swimmers.

You may also use a tank divider should one of the parents eat the eggs allowing the other parent to care for the eggs. You may also have to experiment when you can remove the divider. It may be fine to do so when the eggs have hatched and become wrigglers, or later when they have begun to free swim. Just because the one parent ate the eggs, doesn't mean that they will eat them once they become wrigglers or free swimming fry. If one or both of the parents are inexperienced, their offspring can become snacks at any stage, but hopefully this learning curve will be short lived. If not, you will need to remove the offending parent and allow the other to raise the fry.

Alternatively, there are other options as well such as using *foster parents should you have another pair. (*Contributed by William Palumbo) Or you may choose to artificially raise the fry.

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Wrigglers:

In 2-3 days from the time eggs are laid, you should have "WRIGGLERS"! Wrigglers are attached to the spawning site with a yolk sack that will provide food for them over the next six days of their development. The parents will take turns cleaning and protecting the spawning site.




As the wrigglers develop, they may move around on the breeding site or come off all together. No worries, one of the parents will scoop them up in their mouth and spit them back on to the breeding site.

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Side notes to date:

Keep your breeding tank simple. Biological filtration (sponge filters), heater, aeration, and a lighting. If you're using a normal overhead tank light during the day, you can leave it on 24/7 or you can use a night light or nearby floor lamp after hours to provide sufficient light. This will allow the parents to see the eggs in order to fan the eggs or wrigglers and later it will help the fry find their parents to feed. (Contributed by Kacyeo, Eddie, mmoris)

If you're using a HOB or Canister filters, you should have a pre-filter sponge on the intake tube. For breeding purposes, you should cover the intake and or pre-filter sponge with a nylon. *You can use a ladies nylon wrapped around the intake tube. (*Contributed by mmorris) Or you can use a fine micron media bag securing either with a rubber band. This will protect the fry from being pulled into your filter.

During the actual spawning process, you should turn off your filters for an hour or two to reduce current in the tank and maximize the fertilization process. Don't forget to turn them back on. Use a timer if need be.

To promote spawning you can do a number of things such as feed a higher protein diet such as beef heart, frozen blood worms etc. You can perform partial water changes with slightly cooler water. You can drop the water level and raise it gradually over a number of days. You can separate the pair for a few days then reunite them. Just be patient! More often than not, they'll work it out on their own and you won't need to do a thing.

During the time in which a pair is formed and throughout the spawning process, you will observe that the female and or male will darken in color. This is totally normal as this is a sign that the parent(s) is developing food for the fry once they become "free swimmers" following the "wriggler" stage of development.

Keep the bottom of your breeding tank and pre-filters clean and perform at least partial water changes 2x/3x daily. I use a smaller 1/4" tube to clean the bottom of my tank, which removes less water and allows me to be more agile while cleaning to avoid accidentally siphoning out any wrigglers or fry. This water goes into a 5G bucket, which I inspect for any fry as well before dumping. I keep a small brine shrimp net on hand just in case I need to transport back any fry to the main tank.

In the event that the majority of your eggs develop a fungus, the next spawn you may want to use a *preventative dose of 1 drop/gallon of anti-fungal such as Formalin, Methylene Blue or Acriflavin. (*contributed by Kaceyo) *Dose once the fertilization process has been completed. (*contributed by Moon)

Caution should be used as it may impact your biological filter, so I'd recommend you monitor your water parameters closely if you decide to use it. It is not needed in my opinion after the eggs have hatched into wrigglers.

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Free Swimmers:

In 5-6 days from the time you have wrigglers, you should have wrigglers breaking free from the spawning site to become FREE SWIMMERS. The parents will attempt to scoop them up at first and put them back on the breeding site, but for the most part they will skim across the bottom of the tank, which is why they are sometimes called belly skimmers. *To encourage the fry to attach to the parents to feed, you should lower the water level in your tank to about 2 inches above the tops of the sponge filter air tubes. It's also important to reduce the current in the tank by turning down the flow control on your sponge filters with the use of a gang valve. *Another option, you can use a poret foam divider, with the heater and sponge running full blast on the other side. (*Contributed by Eddie) Regardless of the filtration you're using, reduce the current in the tank for a short time allowing the fry time to attach.

It’s important that the fry do attach within the first few days or it is unlikely that they will make it without the proper nutrition and anti-bodies contained in the parents food excretions.

Day 1: Free Swimmers (Fry begin to attach)








A short video:

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Week 1: 1st Family Portrait

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

As you can see from the photos above, the fry seem to be doing well. The female (RGD) seems to have developed some fin degradation most likely due to the strain of doing the bulk of the feeding. Some of the fry have gone to the male to feed on occasion.

Currently, the water level is still down just above the sponge intake tubes and I will increase the level slowly starting with the final water change later today. The reason for this is that I tried to raise the water level all at once and noticed the fry gathered in a corner and didn't go back to the mother to feed, so I lowered the water level again and the fry went back to feed from the mother.

Water changes are at 25-50% once in the morning to clean the bottom and again a couple of hours after the last feeding for the parents at 7 p.m. Your routine may vary, but it is important to keep the tank clean removing all waste and uneaten food to prevent fowling the water or possibly creating a bacterial issue.

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

I bought a brine shrimp hatchery awhile back and practiced a couple of times to prepare for when I had fry old enough to start them on it at week one. Unfortunately, I haven't been successful in hatching them out yet, which has concerned me a little. Until I get it right, I bought Hikari Frozen Baby Brine Shrimp and have also bought some of Kensfish.com Golden Pearl baby brine shrimp substitute at the 200-300 micron size.

I'll update later on in this thread my experience with the Golden Pearls, but for now I'll note the instructions in using them as per Kensfish.com (these instructions do not come on or with the package):

"You should use them dry. They will sink but when they go down through the water column they mimic the baby brine shrimp. If you soak them they will sink right down because the small air pocket will be full of water inside of them. We have people that use a pepper shaker on them and shake them over the tank. You will also want to store them in a cool dry place or in the refrigerator to from absorbing moisture."

For now, I thawed a cube of the Hikari FBBS in a small glass and used a small syringe to fill it to the 1tsp/5ml mark and injected the BBS above the female and fry. Amazingly, they detached from the female and chased after the BBS.

So far I've observed that the fry will stay pretty close to the parents, so the food of choice needs to be in the water column just above or around the parents given the fry at this point will not venture away from the parents.

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Introduced live baby brine shrimp on the third day of free swimming squirting a little above the mother using a turkey baster. Just a little to start and watch to see if they chase after it watching for the fry's little bellies turn reddish pink. I started with feeding BBS three times a day and the fry chased after the BBS the first time.

In researching brine shrimp hatching set ups, I read Martha's/mmorris kitchen sink system and modified it somewhat with the materials that I had around the house.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showpost.php?p=566827&postcount=4

Item list that I used:

Air pump
Airline tubing
1 airline suction
Gang valve with at least 4 outlets
Heater to maintain temp at 82F
Overhead lighting of some sort
Aquarium salt or non-iodized salt, rock salt, or water softening salt
8 oz Premium Brine Shrimp Eggs for higher hatch rate will last you through a few batches of fry
2 or 3 bottles such as vinegar bottles or similar 1-2L plastic water or soda bottles
Container large enough to hold the 2 or 3 bottles above surrounded by water high enough to submerge the heater.


I used the following:

1) Two 32oz/1L glass vinegar bottle

2) Drill a hole through the vinegar cap and run airline tubing from the gang valve and insert it inside the bottle to reach the bottom of the bottles to circulate the water and eggs. You can use a firm straw-like tube cut to size to fit inside the bottle also and/or air stone that will reach to the bottom of the bottle to insure that the eggs do not settle on the bottom. If they do, the eggs will not hatch.

3) Add two tablespoons of aquarium or non-iodized kitchen salt, per 32 oz of water.

4) Add 1/4 teaspoon of brine shrimp eggs. I added my eggs and salt at the same time.

5) I set the first prepared vinegar bottle into a 5 gallon Home Depot bucket that is filled with 82F water almost to the top of the vinegar bottle.

6) I added a heater inside of the bucket to keep the surrounding water to temperature.

7) Add an airline tube with suction cup to keep the airline in place inside the bucket to circulate surrounding water.

8) My light source was the under cabinet florescent lighting that I left on 24/7; however, according to Brine Shrimp Directs instructions, the BSS cysts need a light source only during the initial incubation period.

9) I used a permanent marker to write a "1" and "2" on the bottle caps to remind me which bottle was ready for harvesting. 1 = A.M. and 2 = P.M.





I modified my first set up above to this:


Depending on the number of fry you have will determine if you need the third bottle. Start one batch of brine shrimp eggs in the morning and a second bottle in the evening to produce a fresh batch of BBS to keep you through the day. I only had 35 fry, so a third bottle in my opinion wasn't needed. Any excess not used, I saved and froze in a lunch size baggy in the event that I didn't have a good hatch rate or if I needed a break from the daily routine of hatching out brine shrimp.

Recommended Brine shrimp Vendor:

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/c1/c2/Premium-Grade-Brine-Shrimp-Eggs-c12.html

Hatching Instructions:

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/res-hatching-c169.html

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Week 2: The Beginning of Independence

Eating live baby brine shrimp regularly and started on ground Ocean Nutrition Thera A+ and ground Growth Pro Vitamin flake once a day for now.















THE END!

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Two Week Video:

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Week 3: Independence and Grow Continued

The fry have become pretty much independent of feeding from the female at an estimated 95% of the time and are eating live baby brine shrimp and the occasional Growth Flake Pro from AngelsPlus which I grind in the palm of my hand.

Additionally, the fry are starting to show some color this past week and pretty much stay within close proximity between the parents who typically within 6-8 inches of each other.

Sadly, I've had a few of the fry seem to be having a difficult time as I found 3-6 of them laying flat on the bottom of the tank having a difficult time breathing. Gills look fine seemingly and after doing a partial water change all would be up and about again. I'm still trying to figure out if it's a change in pH or other water quality parameters, but so far all is testing fine.

[David Rose]

Re: David's Breeding Timeline

Water Changes

My water change routine doesn't change until the wrigglers go free swimming then I switch to doing partial water changes after first and last feeding of the day.

I use a six foot 1/4" RO drain tube to clean the bottom first each time given it takes in less water, but gets everything off the bottom more efficiently within 10 mins. This drains into a Home Depot bucket then I check for fry with a flash light. I tried the white container approach and for whatever reason found it more difficult to see fry accidentally caught in the flow. I found I preferred the firmer drain tubing that gave me more control in aiming the siphon to avoid fry and not have to stick my hands in the water.

After cleaning, I switch to my regular WC siphon and draw from an area of the tank away from the fry for the remaining. I do two water changes a day, squeeze out the sponges to remove BBS etc. and wipe down the insides of the tank once a day.

*To reduce the amount of debris/left over BBS caught up in my sponges, I now shut off the filters for 20 minutes during feeding time, vacuum the bottom while most stuff has settled, and turn back on the filters. (*contributed by Paul/pcsb23)