Need help diagnosing sick Discus

[SoupSandwich]

Approximately 7 weeks ago I received 13 ~2.5” discus for my 230 gallon setup.

All but one have been doing exceptionally well. While they are all growing at relatively the same rate, I had noticed one falling behind over the last couple weeks.

The Discus in question is often showing dark/stressed colors and is becoming noticeably thin. It seems eager to eat during feeding times, but rarely does it actually eat. I feed live black worms 2x per day, which it always shows interest in. However, at times it appears that it cannot see worms floating directly in front of it. When it does eat a worm, it does so with enthusiasm. However, after a few seconds it will spit the still alive worm back out. It will do this process constantly, never actually eating it.

This discus will do this same pattern of behavior for frozen and dried food types as well.

Aside from becoming noticeably thin and usually showing dark colors, the other thing that I notice on this discus is that its gill plates seem to be pushed out most times. I have attached photographs showing this. There is also a small tear on its dorsal fin, however this is very recent and I believe it happened during yesterday’s water change.

I am looking for any input or guidance the community may have in hopes I can help this discus get healthy and happy.

Thank you in advance.

[SoupSandwich]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

None


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

180 gallon display, 50 gallon sump with wet/dry hydroponic section. Running for 7 months.

13 discus, 8 Corydora, ~25 Cardinal tetra, ~18 rummynose tetra

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

90% 2x per week.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

running for 7 months.

white sand substrate with some areas of bagged aqua soil. Mostly .5-1” deep.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

None

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

seachem prime - direct to tank.

9. Parameters and water source;
Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.

- temp _83.5F_

- ph _6.8__

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0_

- nitrate reading _10-15ppm___

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __X__

- RO water ____

10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

no, aside from feeding live black worms

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

I feed 4-5 times per day. Two feedings of live black worms from Eastern Aquatics, then a mixture of other food randomly, including frozen mysis and brine shrimp cubes, a diy blended mix of spinach, shrimp, salmon, tuna and spirulina. Occasional dry fluval bug bites pellets, and finally dried black worm cubes from here.

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

[jeep]

It's gpoing to be very difficult to treat anything in a large tank with substrate. I would place it in a hospital tank and raise the temp slowly to 93 degrees and treat with regular salt at 3TBS per 10g and metro for 10-14 days. It has frayed fins, are any others showing and kind of fin deterioration?

[LizStreithorst]

Everything Brian said, but dose pure metro at 500 mg per 10 gallons. This is twice the recommended dosage on the container.

[SoupSandwich]

It's gpoing to be very difficult to treat anything in a large tank with substrate. I would place it in a hospital tank and raise the temp slowly to 93 degrees and treat with regular salt at 3TBS per 10g and metro for 10-14 days. It has frayed fins, are any others showing and kind of fin deterioration?

Thank you for your input!

None of the other Discus are showing any sort of fin deterioration, trouble eating, or stressed behaviors. Everyone else is showing full bodies, normal social behavior, and are eating very well.

I have a 10 gallon hospital tank with a seeded sponge filter I will get him into for treatment right away.
I will look up some guidance on Metro treatment before I start medicating.

What do you suspect the issue is, and what made you land on Metro as a treatment?
For the Metro, do you have a specific brand you recommend?

Thanks again for your help.

[LizStreithorst]

Trying to eat and spitting the food out is a classic symptom of hex. Its other problems are indicative as well. Everyone here buys their metro from Jehmco. Unlike Metroplex, it is 100% pure metro.

[jeep]

Everything Liz said, lol... I wouldn't consider this an emergency situation, but it is something you want to get on top of. Discus can go a pretty long time without eating.

Yes, many of us get our metro from Jehmco. Although prices have risen, as has everything else, they're the best priced supplier and have several size options. I think you'll have to call them to make arrangements for your first medication order so they can have you on file for legal reasons. They're friendly people running a small family business. Tell them the folks at Simply sent you there.

https://www.jehmco.com/html/medications.html

[LizStreithorst]

One more thing...IMO, if one fish in a group is showing symptoms of hex, they are all carrying it. It's just the most susceptible one in the group that shows symptoms first. Even though treatment in a planted tank is not as successful as in a BB tank, I would treat the ones in the big tank as well. Don't raise the temp. It will harm your dither fish and plants. Treating the entire group will at least lower the parasite load and make it less likely that the fish that is sick now will pick up the parasite from the others. Treating with metro won't hurt. It's a gentle med. When I worked at the veterinary hospital, my vet would always give metro whenever gut problems were diagnosed, even when the problems did not involve a spirochete. The reason they gave was that metro was just good for the guts.

[SoupSandwich]

Thank you for the input - it is greatly appreciated!

As I do further research on Hexamitiasis, I am beginning to feel that additional Discus may be showing symptoms, albeit significantly more mild symptoms than the one Discus in question. With this in mind, I plan to treat my entire display tank via the water column. I will reach out to Jehmco to get an order shipped out immediately.

I forgot to mention that I have a somewhat large colony of Cherry shrimp in my sump - I assume it would be best to remove these during the Metronidazole treatment. I will likely increase the tank temperature by a couple degrees per Metronidazole recommended treatments, but I will do this very gradually as to not negatively impact my plants. In either of your experiences, have you seen any adverse effects from Metronidazole on beneficial bacteria, plants, or inverts?

[LizStreithorst]

I have never experienced any detrimental effects on plants or filters. I don't know about the shrimp. Ask them when you call Jehmco. I expect they will know. Do you not have a BB tank large enough to hold all your Discus during treatment? It is strongly recommended that treatment be done in a BB tank.

If you have no choice but to treat in your tank with plants and substrate, be sure to perform a large WC daily during treatment, clean your substrate thoroughly with every WC, and treat for a full 14 days. The treatment will still not be as effective as it would be in a BB tank.

[SoupSandwich]

I reached out to Jehmco earlier today. Unfortunately all they have available is Metronidazole in 1 Kilogram packages, just a little bit more than what I need (). The person I spoke with was unsure of when they would have the smaller portions available. With this variable being up in the air, I wound up ordering a 100g container of Seachem Metroplex from Bulk Reef Supply.

I do have an unused 40 gallon breeder that I could potentially setup as a hospital tank to house all of them in. My initial concerns are that it seems a bit cramped for 13 of them, and I worry about the added stress. Additionally, I am curious if the dither fish, Corydora, substrate, media, etc. could house the pathogens and potentially recontaminate everyone after treating in a separate tank. Large daily water changes for 2 weeks is not an issue for me.

What are your thoughts on medicating the discus only in a 40g hospital tank versus treating the entire display tank, with the above mentioned variables in mind?

[jeep]

I would go ahead and use the hospital tank on the most obvious one. The immediate threat is with it. In the mean time, I would raise the temp on the main tank as much as possible, but keep in mind that the cory's and other dithers may bot accept the heat. Your plants may not either. I agree that 13 in a 40g is a bit crowded, but if you increase the water changes you may be able to make it work. If you've ever seen professional breeding facilities, their tanks are extremely crowded but also receive 100% or more new water daily.

As far as recontamination goes, yes it's possible, but not only from the dither fish, but the substrate, rocks and driftwood all contribute no matter how meticulous you are with your maintenance routine.

https://forum.simplydiscus.com/forum/main-discus-topics/discus-basics-for-beginners/93550-what-are-bioload-and-biomass-and-why-they-are-important

Hex is an opportunistic bug. Many fish can have it their entire lives and not be affected, but it mainly takes hold as a secondary issue when a discus is already compromised. Bullying, trauma and many other things can bring hex out on an already compromised discus in the form of reduced appetite, white stringy feces, etc... eventually leading to wasting away. Hex is also susceptible to heat and many times heat alone can cure the discus, and metro works best with high heat as well.

[SoupSandwich]

Thank you for the detailed response!

In the days following, two more discus started acting odd, and finally yesterday a third. These, now four discus, stay pretty much stationary, even when all the others excitedly come to greet me and be fed. They show very little interest in food, no matter what type I put in, and do not seem to be eating at all. Three of the four are also regularly showing dark coloration.

With things seemingly progressing negatively, I have decided to treat the entire display tank with Metroplex (I could not source pure Metronidazole). I started today with a ~90% water change, followed by 10g of Metroplex. I have enough Metroplex to treat for 12 days, and will do 10g per day, with a large water change beforehand.

Hopefully this will help them out! I will keep you updated if you are curious.

Thanks again

[jeep]

Good luck! And please do keep us up to date...

[SoupSandwich]

As of today it has been 11 days - but I just did my 10th dose (missed one day a few days ago). In between each day I have done a 90% water change. After a bit more research of Metroplex vs pure Metronidazole, I decided to up the dose to 16g per day.

Two of the four discus in question seem to be improving, with the one I was originally most concerned about coming around and eating food, and keeping it down. It is clear that these two still have something going on, because they will sometimes be dark and reclusive - but they seem to be on the mend overall.

The two others have shown little to no change. One is not showing stressed colors - but it is reclusive/stationary and not interested in food. This one does not appear to be very thin i.e. razor forehead and sunken eyes, although it is slightly smaller than the others.

The remaining one that is a major concern is becoming very thin, and is almost constantly close to jet black. Today I noticed long, white, stringy feces. It has not eaten, and does not seem to move very often at all. If the illness of this fish is not responsive to Metroplex, is there another option to consider? I worry that we are approaching the point of no return.

Thank you