What people do not understand about Aquarium Chemistry

[hobbihorse]

I just thought I would help new hobbyists get the jist of the chemical changes that ouccur during fish transit and just why its so dangerous to the new arrivals. Fish piss, and they urinate in their own enviroment put them in a plastic bag and the ammonia builds up. In a cycled tank anerobic and arobic bateria are hard at work keeping the aquarium clean, What they do is almost exactly the same thing as what they do to our human waste water.They consume the ammonia as aerobic ammonia-oxidize bacteria. Anerobic bateria does basiclly the same job but they prefer no oxyegen but exposure to oxygen will not kill them. Both provide a pivotal role in fish health. Through a process called anammox (anaerobic ammonium oxidation), these unique microbes use ammonia as an electron donor and combine it with nitrite under anoxic conditions to produce harmless nitrogen gas.Nitrates in a fish tank are caused by the natural nitrogen cycle, where beneficial bacteria convert toxic fish waste, rotting food, and decaying organic matter from ammonia into nitrites, and finally into nitrates. Build-ups happen due to overfeeding, too many fish, or missed water changes. So as you see these 2 friendly bacteria provide a vital role in water quality and for us as well. In a plastic bag there is no good bateria just ammonia that is the poison that kills your new arrival or causes great stress on the fish. I did a rethink on my idea about putting cycled gravel or substrate in their shipping bag. I still think it is a good idea but the diliverjance would be much better using old pcs of 2 tank cycled sponges no bag damage possible.2 weeks ago i received a dozen tetras and you could tell they used the starvation method to lower the ammonia level during transit. One had died was examined by microscope totally shrunken belly nothing in it the other 11 could not eat enough they went crazy for food. Totally skinney and underweight now i do not have my full school of 12. on the brite side no disease. Sorry but i double down on my idea of putting a cycled sponge with them not gravel or substrate when shipping i have no faith in Ups or USPS TO KEEP THEIR WORD. Ammonia will kill them faster than no food both still a bad option

[hobbihorse]

A very peacful and playful couple Giant Blue Floral and Moonstone

[hobbihorse]

url=https://postimg.cc/4m0Mb6hf][/url]

[hobbihorse]

Giant Blue Floral and Moonstone They share the same interest male/ female they both hate eggs

[Second Hand Pat]

There is not reason to place cycled gravel into a bag when fish are being shipped. The fish are protected as the ph drops in the bag from the ammonia. Once you received the fish, float the bag to allow the temperature to be the same or close (about 10 minutes or so). Drain all the water in the bag (without allowing air to enter the which would raise the ph) and ease the fish into the tank. Personally I would not want gravel in the bag with the fish.
Pat

[pitdogg2]

You may have forgotten that bacteria also is competing with the fish for oxygen.

[danotaylor]

The risk of the “cycled” gravel perforating the bag in transit FAR outward any benefit.

In addition to Pat’s acclimation & introduction info, shippers often use ammo-lock or seachem prime to detoxify ammonia during an overnight delivery.

Additionally a small dose of methylene blue is used by some as it has a mild sedative effect which reduces transport stress & ammonia produced by respirations.

[hobbihorse]

What you are missing is the fish ammonia output far outways any attempt to neutralize the ammonia. Fish piss and piss allot let your tank go for 4 weeks with no water change and see what happens. And this would be with a cycled tank! My filters trap an enourmous amount of fish waste. I have an OASE 350 and a Seachem 75 kicker. I have to clean them every week. My 65g is by no means overstocked I allow 20 gallons per discus not 10. And lets not forget about the hoses they become loaded with organic matter as well. Did you ever see tons of "filter puke" come out when priming an OASE cannister filter after cleaning ? That junk is coming from your hoses. If you do not clean your hoses tons of organic matter stick to the sides of the hoses, intake and outflow tubes. I have put gravel in snack bags with no perforations I was not refering to "gravel rocks" You are depending too much on chemistry to support your ideas. Un natural chemistry is never a "good thing" Prime is good but not "that good" I only use it for water changes to debug the clorine in the tap water. My rummy nose always tell me the condition of the tank water. Light red nose...bad....dark red nose...fine.This is their claim to fame...Canary in a coal mine,

[hobbihorse]

To pitdogg2 anerobic bacteria need no oxygen an means not or without

[hobbihorse]

Carefully read my latest long post What people do not understand about Aquarium Chemistry

until you fully understand it. It is the key to succes in this hobby especially when first starting out. Master this and you will master the hobby. Bring on the discus,,,jk There are several live bacteria seeders but aquarium cycling does not happen overnight no matter what the bottles say its BS. One trick that does work to speed up the cycling process is to use Zebra Danios. They are extremely hardy and can withstand much higher levels of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. This is a very old trick but the question becomes once they did their job what do you do with them? Discus do not like herky jerkey fish that swim around like crazy !! Kill them? Set up their own tank? Keep them in the tank? Fishless cycling involves lots and lots of expensive live bacteria and you have feed the bacteria and carefully see the date on the bottle. Zebras are cheap and they get the job done much quicker. IDK Well the choice is up to you. They will do fine in a community tank spending most of the time at the top zipping around.

[hobbihorse]

To: Second Hand Pat...Actually in the lab Nh3 raises the pH however the biological process that breaks down ammonia in water (nitrification) actually lowers pH. Which goes back to my statement to add cycled gravel or substrate loaded with friendly bacteria into the heavy plastic shipping bag when shipping live fish since ammonia on its own will raise the pH

[brewmaster15]

I suppose I will add my two cents here though the thread seems to be floundering in many directions . Let me preface this by saying I have very little experience with shipping discus. Though I have been keeping them and breeding them and shipping and selling for over 35 years (ouch I feel old)


Adding gravel or bits of cycled sponges to fish bags as some have done really isn't beneficial if you prep the fish right and pack correct. Fish that are to be shipped Need to be fasted several days and shipped overnight in clean water. If you do this ammonia is not an issue. Ammonia is a byproduct of Protein foods we feed feed fish.They excrete it from gills mostly .If a shipper fasts the fish, ammonia is rarely an issue. Any ammonia excreted is usually not toxic in the bag as CO2 from the fish keeps it as such until the bag is openned .

Seriously if you want to put gravel,or zeolite or bits of sponges in the bag When shipping they are not necessary or beneficial if you prep the fish properly before ...and seriously,I am no stranger to Shipping fish lol. Though I dare say I probably have shipped more fish than most hobbyists and shipped fry for several of our contests on the forum.

[pitdogg2]

To pitdogg2 anerobic bacteria need no oxygen an means not or without

Let’s keep it simple. All of them fall into two main categories:

• aerobic bacteria that need oxygen,
• anaerobic bacteria (Heterotrophic bacteria) that do not need oxygen.

Bacteria that need oxygen

These are the workhorses. Most tanks depend on two types:

• AOB (Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria, for example, Nitrosomonas spp., Nitrosococcus spp., Nitrosospira spp., Nitrosolobus spp., Nitrosovibrio spp., etc.) that converts our ammonia into nitrites.
• NOB (Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria, Nitrobacter spp., Nitrospira spp, Nitrococcus spp., Nitrospina spp., etc.) that converts our nitrites into nitrates.

Beneficial bacteria take the oxygen and oxidize the ammonia/nitrite.

[hobbihorse]

The nitrogen atom formally increases its oxidation state by losing electrons to oxygen. In chemistry we call oxygen an electron hog it is always looking to balance its electron shell It is a corrosive substance look what it does to metal steals its electrons big time damage!!! Always taking or bonding to to other elements. Evolution has taken advantage of its piggishnes and mitrocondria forms the background of life in the electron transport chain. All hydrogen atoms have only one electron so it is easy stripped off or bonded changing what element it has now become and they become charged ions + or - A quicky example CO- carbon monoxide is highly dangerous Co2 is not. The only difference? Another oxygen atom has bonded to the first completing their electron shells. Is Co2 harmless? NO NO NO. IF you were locked into a room that was 10% Co2 death is immenet."Myth Busters 2006" The remaining oxygen would bond to whatever oxygen is left in the room. And since we are carbon based machines there is no shortage of carbon we take in oxygen and expell carbon gas. you run out of oxygen...certain death. I respectivly disagree with brewmaster he sounds like he has had no problems with the shipper being late with shipments or his. I have NOT. Starving fish before they arrive means that much longer they starve if there is there is any disruption in the shipping chain dead fish arrive. My last fish purchase arrived they were all very skinny and one was dead. Showing the breeder followed the starve em rule. Co2 is not harmless it lowers pH and if in abundance kills. That is why we expell it. I see no reason to dismiss the idea of a back up. A small cycled sponge seems like a perfect tool to use in shipping not gravel as I had earlier speculated.

[brewmaster15]

The nitrogen atom formally increases its oxidation state by losing electrons to oxygen. In chemistry we call oxygen an electron hog it is always looking to balance its electron shell It is a corrosive substance look what it does to metal steals its electrons big time damage!!! Always taking or bonding to to other elements. Evolution has taken advantage of its piggishnes and mitrocondria forms the background of life in the electron transport chain. All hydrogen atoms have only one electron so it is easy stripped off or bonded changing what element it has now become and they become charged ions + or - A quicky example CO- carbon monoxide is highly dangerous Co2 is not. The only difference? Another oxygen atom has bonded to the first completing their electron shells. Is Co2 harmless? NO NO NO. IF you were locked into a room that was 10% Co2 death is immenet."Myth Busters 2006" The remaining oxygen would bond to whatever oxygen is left in the room. And since we are carbon based machines there is no shortage of carbon we take in oxygen and expell carbon gas. you run out of oxygen...certain death. I respectivly disagree with brewmaster he sounds like he has had no problems with the shipper being late with shipments or his. I have NOT. Starving fish before they arrive means that much longer they starve if there is there is any disruption in the shipping chain dead fish arrive. My last fish purchase arrived they were all very skinny and one was dead. Showing the breeder followed the starve em rule. Co2 is not harmless it lowers pH and if in abundance kills. That is why we expell it. I see no reason to dismiss the idea of a back up. A small cycled sponge seems like a perfect tool to use in shipping not gravel as I had earlier speculated.

I'm sorry but this post and your others really are inaccurate on many levels. You are most certainly welcome to your opinion and welcome to believe what you wish.My views are based on shipping and receiving many fish, not just discus,including doing so commercially. I don't know anything about your experiences in shipping fish as it sounds like you are formulating your ideas from having received fish from others. Fasting fish before shipping is an industry standard as it drastically reduces Ammonia built up, reduces stress,and prevents fin and gill burns.Fasting a fish 24-48 hrs does not cause you to receive thin fish. If you receive thin fish fish you were shipped fish with underlying pre existing conditions.

I did not say. CO2 excreted by the fish wasnot toxic but it's going to be there whether you add a pinch of gravel or pixie dust or sponges. That CO2 helps keep the pH of the water down.. which helps keep ammonia in its less toxic form. This Ammonia excreted by the fish is going to be far more in a fish that was fed a meal before shipping. A bit of gravel will not compensate for that, nor will a bit of sponge. Additionally. The fish will pass feces into the bag fouling the water further.

Fasting fish before shipping is a standard because it works and makes sense... Recommending people put cycled filter material in the bag is not needed. Fast the fish, use clean water, pack the fish in the right size bag with an appropriate amount of oxygen,heat packs as required, use overnight shipping . Theres no need to make this harder than it has to be.