Trouble in Paradise

[wgtaylor]

Here is a breakdown on the problem I am having.
Any thoughts or course of action would be greatly appreciated.

Started to see the tank of contest discus slowly eating less food than usual about 8 to 10 weeks ago.
There were no obvious signs of trouble so I assumed it might be Hexamita or Spironucleus and treated with Metronidazole.
Used Metronidazole powder, following directions on jar. Dosed at 5mg/L once per day for 5 to 7 days, except I read on the internet by dosing for 10 days will completely eradicate Spironucles so treated for 10 days.
No sign of improvement.
Two days ago I noticed one discus with a clear tubular feces so I pulled some out and put under the microscope.
There were what appeared to be many nematode eggs, about 60 to 70 in one half inch of the clear gel like feces, sorry no picture of feces, see below for eggs.
This is what I plan to do next unless someone has another idea that might be a better solution.
I have Vermisol which contains 7.5 grams Levamisol powder. Recommended dose at 2.5 ppm for 24 hours followed by large water change and retreat in one week.
The University of Florida recommends Levamisol in food to be fed once per week for three weeks so I will try three treatments at one week intervals. Want to get rid of this stuff.
Here is a couple poor pictures I took of what I believe are the nematode eggs. Please let me know if I'm mistaken as I have never seen this before.





No new fish added to the contest tank.
water, 65ms, ph 6.5, 85 deg F
80% daily water changes, thoroughly wiping tank and siphoning bottom before feeding.
Slowly eating less food over time.
Poo light brown and falls apart quickly.
Their weight is ok, growth could be better.
No other signs of problems but albino's don't turn dark.
No aggression between tankmates.

I have gotten all my discus before from limited sources and have experienced very little fish diseases.
So if there are experienced discus keepers that have a prophylactic treatment regime to circumvent most common problems with diseases please feel free to post here or pm or e-mail me of your experiences.
I feel like a caretaker of these contest discus and don't want to do anything to muck things up.
Thanks
Bill

[brewmaster15]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Hi Bill,
I think treating them for worms is the way to go here, but on that vermisol... I haven't tried feeding it...I don't think there would be an issue with the carrier in it...still I just can't say for sure..

I would dose the tank water initially since you know its safe... then scope the feces after a day or two and see if theres worm eggs still.. If there aren't that would give us alot of info and if there are...well that says alot too.

Conversely, since they are eating, you could feed them a panacur(fenbenazole) based food... There are many commercial sources for flakes medicated with this at the proper concentration.

hth,
al

[wgtaylor]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Ya, thanks Al, I didn't make it clear, planned to treat the water with the vermisol. Will check again for eggs and maybe retreat three times. In the meantime I will order something with fenbenazole in case the vermisol doesn't do the trick.
Will keep post updated,
Thanks again !

[Eddie]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Bill, sorry to hear about the worms. I use vermasol at 380 mg/ 10 gallons of water. Works like a charm but it can leave a nasty residue (slime) in the tank and cause the tank water to go a bit cloudy. A couple of good water changes and several complete wipe downs will get rid of all the slime build up.


Let us know

Eddie

[wgtaylor]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Thanks Eddie,
Got the tank dosed last night. Will do a big water change and scrub down tonight then scope for eggs. Hope this levamisol takes care of these worms. Just curious, do you weigh the powder right out of the Vermisol 100g container to dose the tank?
Thanks for the info buddy, will let ya know how it goes.

[Eddie]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Thanks Eddie,
Got the tank dosed last night. Will do a big water change and scrub down tonight then scope for eggs. Hope this levamisol takes care of these worms. Just curious, do you weigh the powder right out of the Vermisol 100g container to dose the tank?
Thanks for the info buddy, will let ya know how it goes.

Yup, I scoop out a small bit at a time until I get the amount I need. I use a small digital pocket scale that measures in milligrams.

Eddie

[wgtaylor]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Looks like the levamisol worked. I used the dosage Al had posted 2.5 mls /20 gals of the stock solution of levamisol Thursday.
Yesterday discus had expelled many worms which covered the intake of the hob filter.
I did another large water change this morning and scrubbed everything down. Scoped the remnants on the intake of the hob filter
and discus feces. Seen adult worms on the intake and quite a few immature worms in the feces, all dead I assume, nothing moving anyway.

The discus tolerated the treatment with no visible signs of stress. Bio filter appears ok.
By what the eggs looked like and the dead immature worms I saw in the feces I believe them to be capillaria.
Looked like figure 10 in referenced document,

http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/Update/Nematode%20(roundworm)%20Infections%20in%20Fish.pdf

I'm pretty sure the levamisol killed all the worms but not eggs that may be lurking in the tank and filters.
I plan to retreat with levamisol at the same strength in one week to kill new hatched larvae.
The first pic of the clear gel feces where I saw the capillaria eggs.
The second pic how they looked this morning after water change.
As of now thier appetite has not recovered.
Any suggestions on additional treatment is welcome.
Thanks, Al and Eddie
Bill

[Eddie]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Sounds promising Bill, the pictures of the gel poo are great for reference. So white gel poo can be indicative of nematode infections. This has been in my limited experience also. Bet the beauty's feel much better and I am sure you'll be getting more growth on them.


Take care my friend and thanks for providing the results!


Eddie

[wgtaylor]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Sounds promising Bill, the pictures of the gel poo are great for reference. So white gel poo can be indicative of nematode infections. This has been in my limited experience also. Bet the beauty's feel much better and I am sure you'll be getting more growth on them.


Take care my friend and thanks for providing the results!


Eddie

Thanks Eddie,
Ya, I originally scoped the gel poo and found all the capillaria eggs shown in the original pictures and were quite visible at low resolution. Then zoomed in for ID.
The capillaria worms in the normal poo where harder to find mainly because they are very transparent and I had to turn the light level of the scope nearly off before I could see them.
I missed them when I checked before.
Anyway, I'll treat them again in a week and keep scoping until I'm sure this tank is clean. Thanks for your help buddy.
Bill

[Disgirl]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Bill, glad to hear they are doing better now. Can you or Eddie tell us how discus get Capillaria worms? Since your contest fish are all by themselves, did they have them from "fryhood" or do all discus have them in small numbers that can increase at times? Just wondering...
Barb

[sailboat]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Bill, where can you buy "Levamisol " in case I ever need it.
Thanks

[wgtaylor]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Bill, glad to hear they are doing better now. Can you or Eddie tell us how discus get Capillaria worms? Since your contest fish are all by themselves, did they have them from "fryhood" or do all discus have them in small numbers that can increase at times? Just wondering...
Barb

Thanks Barb,
They do seem better, have two that haven't recovered their appetite yet but sure they all will be fine.
First I want you to know I have lead a sheltered life. I had a small group of discus keeper friends that pretty much ran parasite free hatcheries so I don't have much experience with nematodes other than what I've read. So this is my newbie opinion.
I don't believe all discus have capillaria but if they do they will have some effect. I don't think discus can just maintain a small number of capillaria but I think some discus are able to do better with less nutrients.
The article I linked from the University of Florida has some really good info about capillaria. From what I understand from that article, capillaria can be present in juvenile discus and will reproduce and spread directly from discus to discus without needing another host to reproduce.
They don't appear to do any physical damage but rob nutrients causing slower growth and possibly effecting discus reproduction. If one discus in the tank has capillaria than they all will. They reproduce as easily as flukes.
I've have discus from multiple sources so can't tell you with absolute certainly where the capillaria came from but they are fairly easy to get rid of.
I've read about capillaria for years in fish magazines and mad at myself that I hadn't caught them earlier.

Oh, btw, Eddie
The clear feces was just that, crystal clear under the scope. Nothing in it but eggs, lots of them. It was like multiple adult female capillaria smushed together. In the article from the University of Florida, figure 10 shows a female capillaria with eggs in-line along the length of the worm.
The clear feces I scoped was larger in diameter than a single capillaria so the eggs were able to be randomly spaced, and enough room for about a dozen eggs to fit side by side.

Bill, where can you buy "Levamisol " in case I ever need it.
Thanks

This is the link I was given to order, says it's still in stock, http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/586.html
And this is the dosage posted in the Disease Section by Al (brewmaster15) and seems to be working. (Thanks Al)

I took the 100 gram bottle from Foys Pigeon Supplies and added 100 mls of water to it.
thats 7.5 grams of levamisole then in 100 mls which is the same as 7500mg/100 mls or 75mg per 1ml.

from that stock I used 2.5 mls /20 gals tank water... Thats the same as 187.5 mg/20 gals..
The old levamisole oblets were dosed at 184 mgs/ 20 gals so the dose should be comparable.

If they are eating well I would do as Al suggested earlier, use a comercial panacur(fenbenazole) based food, as Levamisol may not be available forever.

[Disgirl]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Thanks for the info. Bill. I learned a lot from it. I hope your discus continue to do better and eat well, they are so beautiful! It shows, the good care you have given them!
Barb

[wgtaylor]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

You are welcome Barb. Hope it wasn't too long winded but I hate getting only partial information. I hope there are things we all can learn from these contests. I learn everyday.
Thanks and take care
Bill

[calihawker]

Re: Trouble in Paradise

Sorry to hear about the problems Bill but all the same great info for all of us to learn by. Glad it's cleared up for ya.