Ammonia spike in breeding tank

[SamG]

Hi Discus fam - looking for some advice on the discus breeding tank water issues. I have a 29g tank with an established pair that I got from a friend. My 29g tank setup is bare bottom tank with 55g Alegi sponge that was sitting in heavy loaded 75g established tank (multiple filters). Water in the breeding tank is from aged RO water with pH of about 6.5 and TDS of about 20. I was feeding the fishes once a day alternating between frozen beefheart and freeze dried blackworms, cleaning the bottom of the tank after an hour of feeding and 20% water changes. My water chem was steady at 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and <20 Nitrate.

Since last week I upped the feeding to twice a day of beefheart and siphoning the leftover after 2-3 hours and with nightly 20% water change. I noticed yest evening i had 0.5 Ammonia, 0 nitrate and 20 nitrates (no change in fish behavior yet). Since then I added a second sponge filter (Alegi 40-80g which is slightly bigger and from established tank), done 2 water changes (35-40% one last night and second this morning) and even now I am seeing 0.25 ammonia. I only fed the blackworms today and fished out any remaining food after 30 mins.

I am limited to about 50% water change in a day with RO as that is the max I can get from my RO and my tap water is 600+ TDS 8.6pH which I am not sure I should be mixing to increase water changes. Any suggestions on what additional actions I need to do to keep the fishes safe and get the water chem back on track? After keeping multiple tanks for years, this is first ammonia issue and kind of lost at what is the way to keep the fishes safe...

[brewmaster15]

Hi Discus fam - looking for some advice on the discus breeding tank water issues. I have a 29g tank with an established pair that I got from a friend. My 29g tank setup is bare bottom tank with 55g Alegi sponge that was sitting in heavy loaded 75g established tank (multiple filters). Water in the breeding tank is from aged RO water with pH of about 6.5 and TDS of about 20. I was feeding the fishes once a day alternating between frozen beefheart and freeze dried blackworms, cleaning the bottom of the tank after an hour of feeding and 20% water changes. My water chem was steady at 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and <20 Nitrate.

Since last week I upped the feeding to twice a day of beefheart and siphoning the leftover after 2-3 hours and with nightly 20% water change. I noticed yest evening i had 0.5 Ammonia, 0 nitrate and 20 nitrates (no change in fish behavior yet). Since then I added a second sponge filter (Alegi 40-80g which is slightly bigger and from established tank), done 2 water changes (35-40% one last night and second this morning) and even now I am seeing 0.25 ammonia. I only fed the blackworms today and fished out any remaining food after 30 mins.

I am limited to about 50% water change in a day with RO as that is the max I can get from my RO and my tap water is 600+ TDS 8.6pH which I am not sure I should be mixing to increase water changes. Any suggestions on what additional actions I need to do to keep the fishes safe and get the water chem back on track? After keeping multiple tanks for years, this is first ammonia issue and kind of lost at what is the way to keep the fishes safe...

Really the best option is more water changes but adding biological filters can help. I run two hydro 5 sponges in my 29 gal breeders.. its going to take some time for your sponges to catch up to the load as the fry and feedings increase

You mentioned your capacity is only 50 % water changes due to your setup. If you stack membranes you can double your output of water. You may also be able to switch to a 50-50 mix tap to Ro water to get more water for wcs.
al

[SamG]

Really the best option is more water changes but adding biological filters can help. I run two hydro 5 sponges in my 29 gal breeders.. its going to take some time for your sponges to catch up to the load as the fry and feedings increase

You mentioned your capacity is only 50 % water changes due to your setup. If you stack membranes you can double your output of water. You may also be able to switch to a 50-50 mix tap to Ro water to get more water for wcs.
al

Thanks for sharing that, i will add a bigger sponge filter and switch out the smaller one once bacteria catches up. This totally makes sense and I feel so dumb relying on a single sponge doubling the feed. For now I will add some tap water and have a bigger water change 50-60% twice and switch to single feeding for few days.

If you don't mind sharing your setup details Al - how many times and what your feed your pair in the 29g and how much water change do you do to keep it running?

[brewmaster15]

Sam its pretty straightforward but please understand these are general guidelines for me... I am always trying different things and trying to improve things and learn. I am a hobby breeder and an experimenter of sorts.My goals are not necessarily what others are. There are plenty of others here with great systems that work for them.

Generally what I do:

29 gal tanks ,150-200 watt heater, 2 ATI hydro 5 air driven sponges. I have 2 sponges running with the pair so I can easily move out the parents or fry with one of the sponges and the two sponges will handle plenty of waste from growing fry.

Once the fry attach I let them feed on the parents several days and introduce baby brine shrimp. At this point unless there is a very small spawn I use aged tap water to do large daily water changes. How large depends on the number of fry but for growing fry 75 % daily is average and I up it to twice a day if the spawn is very large. Its critical that tanks of growing fry get lots of clean water. The key for me is using aged water and frequent water changes. it doesn't need to be an arbitrary 100% wc. though it can be. It needs to be enough clean water though so you don't have ammonia and nitrite spikes or bacteria load increases. Impaired fry rarely bounce back.

With in a few weeks of age I have them eating my discus chow pellets and ground up freeze dried blackworms. I will keep them on baby brine shrimp as long as they eat it. I feed them 3-4 x a day.

I cull heavy. Its a continuous process. Its not fun but under performing fry can affect the growth and development of your good fry. They make waste and consume food and lower water Quality. They also are potential weak links in the health of the fry in that tank.

The first 6 months or so this is my routine. Fry that are going to be raised to adult are set aside and raised in appropriate tanks. The others are sold.

[SamG]

Sam its pretty straightforward but please understand these are general guidelines for me... I am always trying different things and trying to improve things and learn. I am a hobby breeder and an experimenter of sorts.My goals are not necessarily what others are. There are plenty of others here with great systems that work for them.

Generally what I do:

29 gal tanks ,150-200 watt heater, 2 ATI hydro 5 air driven sponges. I have 2 sponges running with the pair so I can easily move out the parents or fry with one of the sponges and the two sponges will handle plenty of waste from growing fry.

Once the fry attach I let them feed on the parents several days and introduce baby brine shrimp. At this point unless there is a very small spawn I use aged tap water to do large daily water changes. How large depends on the number of fry but for growing fry 75 % daily is average and I up it to twice a day if the spawn is very large. Its critical that tanks of growing fry get lots of clean water. The key for me is using aged water and frequent water changes. it doesn't need to be an arbitrary 100% wc. though it can be. It needs to be enough clean water though so you don't have ammonia and nitrite spikes or bacteria load increases. Impaired fry rarely bounce back.

With in a few weeks of age I have them eating my discus chow pellets and ground up freeze dried blackworms. I will keep them on baby brine shrimp as long as they eat it. I feed them 3-4 x a day.

I cull heavy. Its a continuous process. Its not fun but under performing fry can affect the growth and development of your good fry. They make waste and consume food and lower water Quality. They also are potential weak links in the health of the fry in that tank.

The first 6 months or so this is my routine. Fry that are going to be raised to adult are set aside and raised in appropriate tanks. The others are sold.

This was really helpful, managing a larger (50-70%) water change last night and this morning I am seeing ammonia drop to zero. Hopefully the filters will catch up soon so I can switch to once a day change. I am curious if you noticed any problems with fry / wrigglers finding and attaching to the parents with 2 giant sponge filters in the 29g?

[brewmaster15]

This was really helpful, managing a larger (50-70%) water change last night and this morning I am seeing ammonia drop to zero. Hopefully the filters will catch up soon so I can switch to once a day change. I am curious if you noticed any problems with fry / wrigglers finding and attaching to the parents with 2 giant sponge filters in the 29g?

Sam, when the fry go free swimming, I remove the sponges from the filter cages and drop the water level to the backs of the pair.. I store the sponge in a plastic bag, wet. Usually in a few hours the fry attach to the pair and start to feed. I then return the sponges to the tank.

hth,
Al

[SamG]

Sam, when the fry go free swimming, I remove the sponges from the filter cages and drop the water level to the backs of the pair.. I store the sponge in a plastic bag, wet. Usually in a few hours the fry attach to the pair and start to feed. I then return the sponges to the tank.

hth,
Al

Thank you Al! it was very helpful, now with one 50-60% water change daily with all RO water I am now back to 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and <10 nitrates, the breeding pair look all good and active, feeding well. I am hoping to be a hobby breeder and one last question. The pair i have from my friend was actively breeding in his similar setup 29g tank, sponge filter but showing no interest in any breeding behavior or signs of starting to clean up the cone, tank glass... my set up is follows
29 gallon tank with 2 sponge filters and a cone
water 6.5 pH, TDS 20 and temp 84F
50% daily water change with water being added at 82F
no direct light on tank, room light that is not too bright and dark from 10pm to 7am
feeding beefheart mix twice daily and cleaning the remaining food and waste after an hour

Anything that from your experience you can share to get them interested in breeding would be appreciated!

[brewmaster15]

If they were actively breeding .. they may just be off cycle and resting. How long have you had this pair?

[SamG]

If they were actively breeding .. they may just be off cycle and resting. How long have you had this pair?

A little over 3 weeks

[brewmaster15]

Ahhh.. in that case I would just be patient and give them time to settle in..also A TDS of 20 is really low. For now I would keep them in normal water.

[SamG]

Ahhh.. in that case I would just be patient and give them time to settle in..also A TDS of 20 is really low. For now I would keep them in normal water.

My tap water is extremely hard with TDS of ~600 and 8.6 pH, i can slowly mix aged tap water and bring up the tds, what should i target it to be?

[Second Hand Pat]

My tap water is extremely hard with TDS of ~600 and 8.6 pH, i can slowly mix aged tap water and bring up the tds, what should i target it to be?

I would suggest 80 TDS or so. This is my target for the wilds (even when breeding).
Pat

[SamG]

I would suggest 80 TDS or so. This is my target for the wilds (even when breeding).
Pat

Thanks Pat, i can adjust that with having aged tap water into the mix.