Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
LOL...I did not attack anyone. I offered a diffferrent opinion then yours and stated my reasons. The fact still remains that you are lacking in experience. All that I am saying is to gain the experience and then your opinions will be more valid.
Jerry Clower use to have a saying that went something like this.......I travel all around the world and everywhere that I go someone will always come up to me and say they have a plan to make things better. And all of their plans have one thing in common....It never requires them to change anything that they are doing...
Same thing here....you don't raise discus. You don't have thousands of dollars invested in raising discus, but you want to say that it is wrong for people to cull discus of marginal quality. If it had any direct effect on you I think your opinion would change.
Also the definition of ignorance is as follows from Websters " the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness ". I was not calling you dumb, it was not a personal atttack, I was simply stating that you did not have the experience to realize that any breeders goal has to be to produce the very best discus that they can. That means culling and culling heavily.
Also I did not post anything that is offensive. If you choice to be offended then that is on you. If you are going to get upset anytime someone has a different opinion then you then you might be happier if you did nto share your opinion. Less chance of you getting your feeling hurt. Now if anyone wants to keep discussing this I am all for it. I am not mad or upset with anyone. I do not take offense just because someone else has a different view then mine...in fact I like to have in depth and spirited discussions. Now we can agree to disagree, become friends, dislike each other, debate it, meet at NADA and discuss it...does not matter to me. Its up to ya'll.
-john
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
A quality fish is easy to quantify, it is not an opinion, there are standards just like with dog breeds. Breeders don't want there culls out there with their names associated with them. Culling is part of the hobby if you don't like it don't breed your fish or join the ranks of those people shoveling deformed crappy fish to those who don't know better.
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
I have a couple of fish I'm not very happy with...poor shape, lots of peppering. I know that I am unsatisfied with these fish. When and if it comes time for them to go then they will be humanely destroyed. I was happy with them when I didn't know any better now I do. Why would I sell or give a substandard fish to another person new to the hobby when I realize once they know more they will also be unhappy with the fish.
I personally don't see the point in shuffling problems around and I agree with the issue of breeding. If my fish were to spawn I would have a real hard time destroying all the fry even if the parent fish were poor quality because I've never raised fry before. If I had all excellent fish then it wouldn't even be an issue.
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
My idea of quality has changed in two years of having discus... Aa does every one else.. If one feels different.. then revisit this thread in 2 years.. :)
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
My feelings are not hurt at all. I have said I understand that culling is part of selective breeding. I am discouraged that I can't seem to get this one point across. For example, I just bought a bulldog Discus & like it very much! I read more than one comment of people saying they are ugly to a deformity & they all should be done away with. Not an exact quote but close enough. When people say they think something is substandard, weird or undesirable & that it should not be allowed to exist. That attitude of, if I don't like it no one should be allowed to have it, even if they think it's the greatest thing they have every seen. That attitude of your judgment of what is or is not quality or desirable is better than the next guys, to the point you want to remove the choice from them, that I find arrogant.
I am self employed so I understand business. I understand wanting to put out a quality product (hate thinking of living things being a product, but thats the way it is). I also understand that sometimes my opinion of what is a quality look isn't the same as my clients idea of what a quality look is. I have no problem giving them what they want. I wish you guys that I assume are breeders, would be a little bit willing to acknowledge that some of the fish you don't care for may be loved by others.
You say there are standards for Discus just like dog breeding. True, also true is there are many many people who would much rather have a mutt because the breeders have breed the brains or personality out of dogs in favor of a certain color or look.
I do appreciate the you are willing to give something more than a one-liner response.
Jim
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Yikes... I like my discus round.
Some breeders cull the round ones and keep bulldogs... Yikes..
2 sentences
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
warlock4169
My idea of quality has changed in two years of having discus... Aa does every one else.. If one feels different.. then revisit this thread in 2 years.. :)
Your right my idea of what I want in my tank will probably change over time. My point is, as I change what I think quality is, I doubt I will want to remove those choices from others.
Jim
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
warlock4169
Yikes... I like my discus round.
Some breeders cull the round ones and keep bulldogs... Yikes..
2 sentences
This is a great example of choices. And two sentences too, even better!
Thanks
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
I thought of a better way to illustrate the point I've be trying to make.
Dogs shows! People watch to see all the beautiful dogs. Every one wants to see who wins first place. On a scale of 1-100 the first place dog may have a score of 93 & the third place dog may have a 89. Both beautiful dogs no doubt, with only tiny differences between them. Do you think people all over the world look at their dog & say, Max or Spot what ever wouldn't even get a score of 65, he is a very poor quality dog. I need to shoot him & bury him in the back yard. NO! Because they love max for totally different reasons than why the dog that won first place, won first place.
The Discus rating system that has evolved is much the same, I think. You guys (the ones in the know) have gotten together over time & decided the the shape should be just so, eyes should be a certain size, the color should be just a certain shade, on & on. Any fish that deviates from this list of requirements is deemed unworthy & should be killed. Just like the dog show all that is fine, FOR YOU. My point is not every one knows or cares or agrees with your list of requirements. Show a 100 people a tank with 100 colorful healthy Discus & I'm sure there would be a hand full of fish most would choice. Those would be the price wining very expensive fish that most would like but few could afford. Some fish would be chosen precisely because of a different shape or color or because they had bigger eyes or what ever. Does that make those people ignorant of your list of rules? YES, does that make their choice wrong? I say know, that makes their choice of what they like their choice.
Thats why I say I think the attitude that ones own judgment of what is or is not good quality is all knowing & the only possible choice is very flawed at the very least.
Let me say I think it's great that we have a place like this to share ideas and or argue about things we enjoy or believe in.
Jim
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Hi all,
Heres my take on this... You need to draw the distinction between what is a cull and what is your average quality fish and finally what is show quality. A cull is deformed fish....short gill plates, mishapen face, bent dorsal fins...etc. These fish should be culled.. Not just because they are deformed and may breed that genetic weakness and pass it on to other fish, but because often times these fish are also weaker. This means that they pose a threat as carriers of diseases. Inevitably disease takes hold in the weakest members first. Some people will broaden this description to include any offspring that don't have the desired patterns,peppering, and colors they sought.That one depends on the breeder though, some breeders see a bigger picture than others with regards to the potential use of a particular color trait.... I've culled many fish over the years...its something I feel the need to do as a responsible hobbyis and breeder.
Average fish...you can't tell the genetics of the average fish by looking at them.They don't look bad, they don't look great, they just are. Most of the members here probably have many average fish.. I would suspect many would look like the original posters fish here. An average fish may be perfectly fine to breed genetically, but perhaps didn't grow to its full potential because of environmental shortcomings...maybe it was crowded, raised in sub optimal conditions like a heavily planted tank can pose.
Show grade fish... They are just that ..show grade, the cream of the crop...the best representatives possible.
just my thoughts...
-al
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fullmonti
Thats why I say I think the attitude that ones own judgment of what is or is not good quality is all knowing & the only possible choice is very flawed at the very least.
Let me say I think it's great that we have a place like this to share ideas and or argue about things we enjoy or believe in.
Jim
jim.. i understand what you are saying..
but i would like to use another analogy..
car salesman..
do you think the saleman is going to get you the best car possible..?! nope..
they are going give you the best deal that makes them the most money.. BUT at same times makes you think you are getting deal, which you never do.. LOL
BUT if you dont' know any better.. then its your fault..
discus are not cheap.. and if you are going to pay that money, you should get the quality you are paying for.. some people buy the fish in the "WHAT NOT TO BUY THREAD" for the same price if not more, then what Beals, Kenny or Hans have..
do you think that is fair for the discus consumer.. ?
i think its fair, as john, was saying and what you are saying..
we have PUPPY MILL DISCUS BREEDERS and Quality Discus Breeders.. i just want EVERYONE to have a QUALITY FISH.. BUT it really comes down to whether you are educated as a consumer, since there is no one else to blame what ones self.. ie. buying Discus or Cars..
i don't breed discus.. but when i do.. i will have to cull, cuz i won't have the time nor resources to have fish that are not to my liking.. i will just NATURALLY SELECT>.
however, if i see a bulldog.. i will ship it to you :) :) :)
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Jim I am glad that you said the following "I am self employed so I understand business. I understand wanting to put out a quality product". Many, many years ago when someone would get say 6 small discus from me I would often give then 1 or 2 culls. Usually slow growers. I would tell them that in every group of discus someone will be on the bottom so instead of it being 1 of the 6 good discus it would now probably be one of the 2 culls that I had thrown in. Now they were healthy so everyone wins right?....Nope a couple of issue kept popping up. First a year or two down the road they would want to take pictures of their discus and post on the new forums that were popping up. They loved their fish and wanted to help me out by telling everyone where they got their fish. While they were showing the nice ones those 2 damned culls always seemed to be in the background. Now I knew what was going on but potential new customers had no clue. Second problem would arise if the person decided to get out of discus. They were not going to cull their discus ..they would just bag them up and take them to a club auction. While it has changed now back then if there was a discus in the auction 95% of the people there would assume it was from me. From a business stand point it became obvious quickly that the best thing to do with culls ( which includes slow growers ) was to cull them.
This is a issue that also affects other animals....Lets take horses for example. The average American thinks that horses are some sort of noble animal...also the average American has never owned, cared for, or been exposed to horses in any real manner. In the past horses that were old, crippled, unwanted (because of low quality or just too mean to deal with) went to the slaughter house. This put a floor on the horse market. No matter how bad a horse was it could still be sold by the pound. Now a few years ago some well meaning people who had no clue decided that it was wrong to slaughter horse. They managed to get all of the slaughter houses shut down. Great that had stopped the barbaric practice of slaughter in horses. Problem.....what do we now do with all of these unwanted horses....They had made a decision based on emotions, not based on facts or experience....At first the few animal rights organizations that really try to help animals( which by the way is a very, very small percentage of them ) tried to take these horses in. Very quickly they became full and some went broke trying to feed these horse that now have no market value, horses that no one wanted. Quickly most auctions quit taking horse. No one would bid on them and the owners would not pick them up, so now the auction had to feed and care for them. so they now had money issues. So where are we now....most of these unwanted horses are now in some form of neglect. They are in a far worse place now then they would have ever been in the past. Even some state agencies are looking the other way...if they "see" the problem then they have to take action and then they now have to take care of the horse for the rest of its life...a animal that no one wants and has no has no purpose on this planet. All it does is consume resources that could have been better used in other places, for other purposes. So some well meaning but inexperienced people have managed to greatly increase the suffering of horses, caused some animal rights groups to shut down( so its not all bad...LOL ), caused hardships on some of the auction houses, shut down an industry that was making money and providing jobs( both the slaughter houses and many horse breeders ), and have caused some of the limited resources to be allocated to animals that no one will ever want...............Man you have to love a well thought out plan.....
-john
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Horse is too big for me to cull in garbage disposal
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
warlock4169
Horse is too big for me to cull in garbage disposal
Man Skip, you made me spit out Coke!
Re: What do you do with unwanted discus?
This is one of the best threads I have seen in a while.
I especially appreciate Nicholson's insight in post 57 but there are a lot of nuggets throughout.