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Thread: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

  1. #16
    Registered Member + MVP - May 2020 coralbandit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    I did not know this till a customer linked me to a pod cast I was mentioned in on Black rams .
    The person speaking [another one of my customers ] explained what a hard time he had with Marcos rams and how mine were better [he thought] due to my crossing the gold into the black to bring calm and better blood into the line .
    I have been working these fish since 2017 and have not locked them in .
    They take longer to grow out and for me are few and far between in spawns .Most of my PBR are not sold before they are 6 months old minimum as opposed to 4 months old for GBR or EBR .
    I simply tell my customers or who ever asks that my pairs are male female that i choose and that is how it goes .
    They can always get them somewhere else huh ?
    I have had no problem moving pairs for $100..Matter of fact almost all my most recent batch is gone and I never even listed them once !
    Post pics of what you got I might take them all or a large portion to lighten your load !
    I know you're a top notch breeder and started with A plus stock ..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhFp68wjRUU
    ^^ My fish room tour by Richsfishes ^^
    Got rams ?

  2. #17
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    Would you sell them without informing them of potential breeding problems in the line? I'm not sure if I could do that. Am I being morally obsessive?

    A big pet store is interested in me becoming his supplier. Let me talk to my own LPS and ask how much they pay for them wholesale. They probably can only get German blues, but it will give me an idea of what to ask. I'll take some pics and post them later.
    Mama Bear

  3. #18
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    Here ya go, Tom. 3 different spawns 2 of which are of breeding age. Half the babies are in with their parents the other half are alone. Tanks range in size from 60 to 90 gallons. WC daily, same as I do with my Discus. These are just snap shots if you want close ups let me know.
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    Last edited by LizStreithorst; 04-11-2021 at 06:33 PM.
    Mama Bear

  4. #19
    Registered Member + MVP - May 2020 coralbandit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    How old do you consider breeding age ?
    The blacks mature slower .
    How old are the pairs that are giving you trouble .
    9 out of 10 people are lucky to keep rams alive without even considering breeding .
    I would guess less then 1 out of 10 stands a chance of being able to breed and raise rams .
    Maybe I am wrong ? I still don't see what you consider a problem that a customer would need to be made aware of ..
    I do tell my customers that blacks are what I call hit or miss, meaning they may be the best parents ever seen or homicidal maniacs .
    Not sure there is much more to it .
    The supplier I got them from still sells them for $60 each with no guarantee of sex ..
    $100 a pair for a educated eye to sex them still seems like a better deal then I got .. Back in 2017 .....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhFp68wjRUU
    ^^ My fish room tour by Richsfishes ^^
    Got rams ?

  5. #20
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    They're over 4 months old, Tom. So far there have been 5 pairs that have not produced wigglers and 3 that have. I think if I can get a fair price I would rather wholesale most of them and offer only the parent raising ones for sale. Could I possibly get $150. per pair for parent raising pairs on AB?
    Mama Bear

  6. #21
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    There was a fertile pair of Blacks that produced half and half blacks and golds. I had them promised to a guy in Calif. I was to ship the pair today. Apparently the female jumped and committed suicide over night. I'm devastated. I have not yet seen any other fertile pairs. I want to net them all out and dig them into the garden to fertilize my vegetables.
    Mama Bear

  7. #22
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    I guess that for now at least they won't be fertilizer. The buyer who knows the whole story about these Rams has decided to wait for another fertile spawn. He is the most kind and understanding person ever. I feel a little better now.
    Mama Bear

  8. #23
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    I came to a decision about this a couple of weeks ago. I have been selling the younger Blacks as unsexed. Tom said that I should and I thought about it for another week. Then I asked Twee, my friend who owns my LFS. She is an extremely moral person. When she said that it would not be immoral to sell them unsexed was when I started doing it. Just like Tom said they sell like crazy.

    I also have a 90 and a 65 filled with the breeding aged adults that I had been selling as pairs before I figured out that somehow the double black resulted in mostly infertile fish. I just didn't know that when I started selling them. Now that I know I can't sell them. They will all have to fertilize my garden. I hate killing fish, but sometimes I have no choice.

    I still have the Pitch Black mom and dad that had been so prolific for me. They're not Spring chickens but they are still healthy and vibrant. Once I have the empty grow out space I will pair my black male with a gold female and visa versa. I will be starting from scratch breeding Pitch Black Rams, but it will feel good to get a fresh start.

    Tom, things are a lot different now than they were om 2017 when you bought yours. Besides, killing a bunch of small fish is not worth loosing my reputation.
    Mama Bear

  9. #24
    Registered Member + MVP danotaylor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    Liz your honestly and integrity is refreshing my friend!! I was thinking some people may be interested in potentially unfertile double blacks as display fish. They would still look beautiful and not cause the problems in a display set up that breeders might cause. Obviously you may not get a premium price but none the less some may want them still and save them from swimming in your soil

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    Liz, I don't know why you don't sell them with the caveat that they are infertile at least when crossed with each other. If you are upfront about it it is completely ethical. If I weren't dealing with one parent in hospice and another with health issues I would be running my tanks and certainly would buy. You might want to try breeding them to unrelated golds, in that scenario they might breed successfully. You should get either 50:50 black and gold or all black. That most of the matings between siblings are failing suggests too much inbreeding resulting in infertility or frail constitution.

    My guess is that you have one parent that has two Black Genes, and the other in the pair has 1 black and 1 gold gene. Black is dominant so all black/gold genotypes are black appearing just like the black/black genotypes. You would expect in this cross to have 1/2 offspring with Black/Black genes, and the other half to have Black/Gold, but 100 % of offspring would appear black. If you cross two of the first generation that have black/gold genes you would expect 25% to be gold. That up to 50 % are gold argues that either the Black/black variant is not as hearty as a Gold/Gold or that both the black/black and black/gold are less viable. Alternately there are more complex inheritance patterns but I think this is a straightforward 1 gene dominant, 1 recessive scenario.

  11. #26
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    I would do that if there were any demand for fish locally. There are too many unknows and it's too complex an situation to explain in an AB auction. I will be happy if my young unsexed blacks bring in enough money to pay for my old farm truck that is at the mechanic's being treated for internal injuries after having caught fire last month.

    Thanks for what sounds at first blush like a simple solution, but it will be easier for me to start over with a black/gold pair and take it from there.
    Mama Bear

  12. #27
    Gold Member FischAutoTechGarten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    I keep so many fish that I never intend to breed. I wouldn't be at all disappointed to get Pitch Black Rams that were unlikely to breed, provided the were healthy enough to fill their 2 year lifespan...
    Peter
    Cuerpo en Green Valley, Arizona, USA y Corazón en Alamos, Sonora, Mexico

    learning never stops

  13. #28
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    LOL. Want me to send you some, Peter? They're cheap.
    Mama Bear

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    Really wish I was up and running, would love to play with these and see how many (if any) were fertile with unrelated golds. Liz if I were you, I would just advertise as poor or very poor breeders on AB. When you ship, just send copy of my message above with the fish and let the new owner play or not with what he has, not all want to breed. Would certainly help with wounded truck. Didn't CB indicate that he sold all his PBs without even advertising on AB?

  15. #30
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Genetics of Pitch Black Rams

    He did. At the moment I still have a ton of young ones that I'm selling on AB. The auctions often sell within a few days. I have my hands full keeping up with the orders. I won't give the adults to the garden as fertilizer yet. I have my mamma black in with a gold male. I'll see how that goes before I make up my mind what to do.

    Thanks everyone for your suggestions. You have given me a lot to consider.
    Mama Bear

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