ChicagoDiscus.com     Golden State Discus

Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

  1. #1
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    9
    iTrader
    0

    Default Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Hello Forum, only second post here, but have been learning a lot from the site in the last year.

    Life long aquarist here, but only had discus for the last year, when I got 10 3-inchers. Now, two of my 1 YO fish have spawned in the tank (which hosts all my discus, plus a brittle nose pleco and 6 cardinals). I do not expect to see any hatchlings from it, since my fish live in hard well-water. However, it would be awesome if this serves to confirm the sex of the purported parents. Female is already confirmed since I saw her laying eggs. Male seemed to be fertilizing the eggs. Both parents diligently tending for the eggs, but who knows...

    At 36 hrs. the eggs look as you can see in the picture below. Only a few have turned white, and the rest seem to be a bit darker (yet translucent). Can I assume that most eggs have been fertilized? As I said, I would be surprised if any of these hatches, and hence they will all turn white with fungus in about 12 hrs according to what Ive read here, so I was expecting to get some insight from the white/non-white eggs at this stage.

    I guess it all come to the question of the likelihood of telling apart non-hatchling because hardness vs. non-hatchling because non-fertilized batch.


    WhatsApp Image 2021-05-07 at 10.14.41.jpg

  2. #2
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Moselle, MS
    Posts
    10,344
    iTrader
    12 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    You won't know for sure unless you move the pair to a tank with softer water. Or, next time the pair spawns in their current tank immediately move the cone to a tank with soft water.
    Mama Bear

  3. #3
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    9
    iTrader
    0

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LizStreithorst View Post
    You won't know for sure unless you move the pair to a tank with softer water. Or, next time the pair spawns in their current tank immediately move the cone to a tank with soft water.
    Thanks for the rather disappointing yet quick response!

    I might take a hard pass on your suggestion, since a) I lack any infrastructure at this time (maybe I will consider breeding in a few months, when my new 260 gal tank is setup and the current one is free); and b) the pair is a quite despised cross (Cobalt female, Red Map PB ?male). Thats why I was only expecting to sex the members of the pair at this point, which would allow me to induce more desirable matchings in the future...

  4. #4
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Moselle, MS
    Posts
    10,344
    iTrader
    12 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    If the eggs hatch in the soft water you don't have to raise them. Feed them back to your Discus. Live food is the best food.
    Mama Bear

  5. #5
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    9
    iTrader
    0

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LizStreithorst View Post
    If the eggs hatch in the soft water you don't have to raise them. Feed them back to your Discus. Live food is the best food.
    Yeah, good point. Maybe next time if Im lucky and they use the provided tile slab instead of the filter...

  6. #6
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,417
    iTrader
    2 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Wait for 72 hours after spawning the fertile eggs should have a black dot in the center of the egg.

    Cliff

  7. #7
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Moselle, MS
    Posts
    10,344
    iTrader
    12 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Cliff knows more about this than I do.
    Mama Bear

  8. #8
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    9
    iTrader
    0

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Thanks a lot for the answers. At 42 hrs, I believe the eggs are turning darker and I can even imagine a subtle dark spot in the centre of some of these. I've reassessed the water parameters: 210 ppm general hardness, 190 ppm carbonate hardness. 8pH. Maybe I might get a few wigglers from this 150+ spawn?

    Also, I checked with my fish provider. Apparently the Red Map is heterizigous for PB, which is interesting since he has very little peppering. The Cobalt female bears the Blue Diamond allele. Sort of pissed off that the fish are not pure lines but mutts. On the other hand, my pair is not such a hideous combination anymore. Might try to raise some of its batches in the future.

  9. #9
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Moselle, MS
    Posts
    10,344
    iTrader
    12 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    A lot of Discus are mutts. They are named for the fish they look most like or if they're weird looking often given a made up name. It's just the way the Discus world works. I'm not crazy about it either but it is what it is.
    Mama Bear

  10. #10
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    9
    iTrader
    0

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LizStreithorst View Post
    A lot of Discus are mutts. They are named for the fish they look most like or if they're weird looking often given a made up name. It's just the way the Discus world works. I'm not crazy about it either but it is what it is.
    Good to know. I feel less cheated now. Still believe it is important to be clear when a breeder offers a mutt vs. a pure line. Just my biologist-biased opinion I guess.

    Eggs keep turning darker BTW

  11. #11
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Moselle, MS
    Posts
    10,344
    iTrader
    12 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Good luck. After 48 hrs if they're turning darker rather than whiter it's a very good sign.
    Mama Bear

  12. #12
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    9
    iTrader
    0

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Final report: eggs turned clearly dark late last night. This morning at 58 hrs post-spawning, there are much less eggs. The white ones are still in place (about 15% of the batch) and untouched. No cottony look yet. Ive seen at least five wigglers (now gone), which the parents moved to an area of the filter they had been actively cleaning last evening. They seem to have troubles getting them glued back though. I even saw one wiggler being sucked by the filter intake...

    Based in the dark/white ratio, I assume that most of the eggs (about 85%) had been fertilized. Also, considering what I am seeing right now, it is possible that about 90% of these hatched so far and most of the wigglers were lost to inexperienced parents. Of course I cannot be sure of the hatching ratio, since it is possible that somebody else (or even the parents) ate the missing eggs. It seems unlikely to me though, given the parents behaviour and vigilance, and selectiveness of eaten eggs (no white egg seems to be missing).

    In summary, Ive learned a few important things from this failing experience, namely: 1) I sexed the parents beyond doubt; 2) the pair is fertile; 3) the pair has a strong parental drive even in its first attempt; and 4) apparently, I can get an acceptable hatching ratio in my moderately hard water (210 ppm general hardness, 190 ppm carbonate hardness).

    Prompted from this experience, I also learned about my fish genetics. The male seems like an acceptable candidate for non-commercial breeding, as he is only lightly peppered even when heterozygous for PB. Unless some experienced breeder teaches me differently, I would expect him to produce at least some clean homozygous PB when crossed with another PB. The Female is a Cobalt bearing the recessive Blue Diamond allele, so even keeping the pair as is, it should give 50% of non-PB fish (of which I have no idea how they would look like).

    Thank you Liz and Cliff for your very helpful comments!
    Last edited by Nahuel; 05-08-2021 at 09:18 AM.

  13. #13
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Moselle, MS
    Posts
    10,344
    iTrader
    12 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    That's wonderful news! One last note. One of the signs of overly hard water is that the heads of the babies aren't as sticky. So when you get ready to actually get breeding you still may want to lower the TDS a bit until the kids free swim. You can use distilled water, or even rain water if your rain water doesn't contain pollutants.
    Mama Bear

  14. #14
    Registered Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    9
    iTrader
    0

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    Quote Originally Posted by LizStreithorst View Post
    ...One of the signs of overly hard water is that the heads of the babies aren't as sticky...
    Very relevant and highly appreciated piece of information. I always had read about hardness vs. hatching ratio, but never about stickiness of wigglers. I certainly will go for lower TDS if (when) deciding to breed.

    Coda: all eggs gone by now (60 hrs post spawning)

  15. #15
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Moselle, MS
    Posts
    10,344
    iTrader
    12 (100%)

    Default Re: Too soon to know if eggs viable?

    eggs for breakfast. What could be a better way to start the day
    Mama Bear

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Cafepress