certified breeders

[TnMark]

I have been watching the discussions on these boards for a few months now, and now clearly realize that the anonymity of the Internet allows a lot of unscrupulous people to take advantage of others much more knowledgeable than me, too often.

I have spoken to Mike Wells twice now and was prepared to purchase about $250 of fish from him. He seems really knowledgeable and very caring about his fish. He even refused to ship this week because of the cold weather because he was concerned about the health of his fish. I also considered ordering fish from Cary at Great Lakes. These two people seemed to me to be the most honorable people on these boards. They were highly recommended by many other people on these boards.

I have however decided not to buy from these probably honorable people and instead to buy from my LFS. I don't know these people who are selling fish on the internet. I don't know any of the people making recommendations. I don't know if the pictures posted are truly what is claimed.

i think the certified breeder program proposed in daah where there would be arbitration and recourse for someone who purchased misrepresented fish would give me the comfort level i needed to purchase from an unknown source

Until then I will purchase from the people i know and trust and pay more and probably get fish of a lower quality. by not policing your business you are turning away some customers who need more assurance than an unknown person recommending a particular breeder>

[Carol_Roberts]

I don't understand your logic ???

The two breeders you mention are well known, use their real names and have cutomers with cameras who frequent this board and post pictures of the exact discus purchased from them. Mike and Cary are frequently right here on this board where you can ask them questions.

I'm guessing you are new to discus. Yet you would rather rely on your local fish store, who may know less about discus than you and who probably gets 2nd rate discus from a wholesaler.

Yes, there are some fly by night operators who sell junk fish. Generally when they are found out, it is posted on the board to warn others.

I suggest you put off your next purchase for a while. Hang around here and see what's really going on. Then decide who to buy from.

[bmrin1]

I have to agree with Carol, where is your logic?
You mention the certified breeder program at DAAH. I think it is a great idea. However I can speak from personal experiance with Mike and I can assure you that Mike Wells is a class act and does take pride in selling very good fish. He even keeps in touch with you after you get your new fish. He will also, and I know this for sure, make sure that you are satisfied and replace anything you are not happy with or have problems with.
I like to give my money to local people as much as the next guy but unless that local store has grade "A" fish and they know exactly where the fish come from I would rather burn my money. If spending $250 dollars on fish means nothing to you then go to the local store. I however would like to get the best fish possible with my money. That means I will and have gone to the breeders.
It is about trust and there are a lot of people out here in discus land that trust the two you mentioned and have had good experiences.
The best thing you can do is talk to the breeders and really get a feel for them before you buy. Just don't buy because everyone else buys from them. There is a reason that these two guys sell soooooooo many fish. Quality, Class and they Care.
Brian

[jeep]

I might add... You think you know and trust your LFS? Think again! They are in the business of moving fish, period! LFS fish are USUALLY (not always) seconds. The only LFS within 20 miles of my house that sell discus wants $50 for sickly football shaped fish that resemble discus. Since they are exposed to all the other fish that no one knows where they come from, you may be spending several hundred dollars on fertilizer...

I picked up my new ones from Cary about 30 minutes ago. They have been bounced around all over the country on two different planes, and right now they are fighting to get out of the bags and acting like they're starving. Plus that, Cary still hasn't learned how to count. I got extras!!!

I understand your concept, but there is plenty of reading here in the archives and you can see for yourself who is reliable.

[TnMark]

My logic is, why should I take advice from people I don't know. I think the forum is interesting, and a lot of good info is disseminated, but there is no way for me to know who the people making recommendations are or if they have any affiliation with who they are recommending.
Although I understand the legal liability, I think the policy of not allowing truthful negative postings with names along with positives is a bad one.
I may be in the minority as far as not trusting people I don't know, but where is the real validation of quality breeders.
I often buy from Ebay and carefully scrutinize feedback from people who it is verified actually purchased from a seller.
I believe some sort of validation would be good for the industry.

[c-bones]

??? I have to agree with Carol and Brian.........You might need to wait before buying from these fine honest and caring knowlegable Breeders you mentioned, try your had with LFS Discus before running with the big dogs.
Raising Discus is an art and IMO Mike Wells is a GREAT artist.....I have lots of beautiful healthy happy Discus from him, an he's a great help when you need him, and wonderful to talk to too.
It is because of these conversations I have had with Mike Wells that I have come back to raising Discus.
Brian is right, helping the locals is a good thing but LFS Discus, well that truely is another thing.


Good Luck to you,
Rose

[DarkDiscus]

TnMark,

I agree, you shouldn't buy from someone you don't know. So get to know them. A good breeder will spend time talking with you, going over the fish. You can then get them to e-mail you pics of the fish you are going to buy. Make the calls, put in the time, then buy the fish.

If you want great fish, you are better off going with those who know what they are doing.

JMHO,

John

[Ryan]

I am not sure that I understand. You are all for a Certified Breeders Program, but you do not trust the people on this site. Wouldn't those buyers be the exact same people who would be posting responses for the Certified Breeders Program? If not, who would? The forum administration?

I also don't see a reason why people would lie about being happy with their fish from a breeder. If fifty people on this board have ordered from Cary with good results, it would be a little over the top to assume that all fifty people were lying and receiving some sort of compensation from Cary. It just doesn't happen that way.

People continually criticize the policy that this board holds in regards to breeders and sellers, yet there is no reason for it. I know that many are unhappy. We tried it the other way before and it was a big problem. The subject is closed. If you are in support of a Certified Breeder Program, express your interest at DAAH. At this point, we have no plans of attempting such a program because I honestly don't know where I would start or how we could even handle it.

Ryan

[fossil]

I have a question?....

Why does everyone bash LFS? I mean a lot of my fish stores around here do suck but I have one thats about a hour a way that puts on a better show then Sea World.lol

I mean every tank and fish in there look better and happier then most fish I have seen at shows. With about 3,000 gallons + its awesome. Most times they won't even sell to anyone unless they have perfect tank, they ask questions about water, size of tank and etc. and make sure you have the correct stuff for that fish or they won't sell it to you. Now if thats not nuts I don't know what is.

I'm just trying to let everyone know that all LFS aren't something from under your Grandma's bed, meaning all don't smell and are rotting. You prob. have a great LFS near you, you just got to look. A good fish store is kinda like gold you have to look for it to find it.

AHhhh that felt better

[brewmaster15]

I think those that posted before me have covered most of my thoughts well here.

My advice , which of course you are free to take or leave, as you don't know me, is to keep researching. On Dec 21 you posted you were new and about to make the plunge, after spending about a months time looking into it.

Your reasoning here doesn't make any sense. Forget the breeder hype, forget the LFS vs breeder issues, and forget about a certification plan for breeders. I don't know of a single species of fish where one exists, not that it can't happen, just not an easy thing to put together.

Read the disease board, and see what you are going to have to deal with. See what we have all dealt with. You will have to deal as well with it. If you think your LFS will be able to help you with Discus specific ailments...think again. Your best chance of Success is to get to know the reputable breeders out there, and to use boards like this for the resource they are.

What really confuses me is the reasoning.... Where do LFS get their discus? They either buy them locally from small breeders like those on this board, or the buy them wholesale from big breeders like those on this board, or they import them from God knows where. You have a chance to go thru the source, buy good fish, and instead you are opting for petshop fish, that have been handled poorly in most cases. Sure there are good LFS out there, but few know a thing about Discus. I consider myself pretty good at curing sick fish, but even with all that knowledge, I have lost far more Pet shop fish than I ever care to remember.


For what you will pay at the LFS, you could buy some really nice fish that won't miss the food when they eat, won't have body deformities, won't be infested to the point of death and stunted growth from parasites.

I can almost bank on seeing you again here, or another site out there trying to get advice on how to cure these ailing fish. Do yourself a favor, learn from all of our mistakes.... Thats why this board exists. Please learn from our mistakes.

I can't tell you how many hours I have spent trying to help someone cure sick fish, but I can tell you that most of the time pet shop fish are the patients.

If my tone is hard here, understand I am often up late at night trying to help people who unknowingly bought sick fish from a LFS, and here you are chosing to do so because their isn't "certified Program". and theres one for your LFS?

-al

[Ryan]

You are correct. Not every LFS is a bad LFS. There are some who have excellent customer service and quality. There was a little mom-n-pop store near me several years ago that I loved to go in. I got my first discus from there and they were very nice--no short gill plates, not "juiced up" to be colorful, eyes were nice and small, fins were clear and erect... but sadly the owner sold the business and it has since gone downhill.

Many discus hobbyists get their first fish from an LFS. If your LFS carries nice stuff, by all means, support them! However, many times LFS do not follow quarantine procedures, and they keep their discus on central filtration where the water is shared between all the other tanks. Sometimes the fish get sick (unintentionally) and it's probably too time-consuming and expensive for the LFS to try and treat the fish.

I also think that many LFS (again, not all of them) hire part-time people who are looking for a job. Many often have no experience with fish. The places around my area are like that. Some of them give advice without any real knowledge of the subject.

When newcomers visit the forum and post their problems with sick fish, many times they've bought them from an LFS, skipped quarantine procedures, followed bad advice from the LFS employees, etc. I don't think anyone here is trying to say that you cannot buy fish from an LFS, but by recommending a knowledgable breeder or seller they are helping eliminate one more of the potential problems (unhealthy fish from a questionable source) often experienced by new discus-keepers.

Sadly, none of the LFS carry discus anymore where I live. They all told me that basically they were too sensitive and that no one bought them. This is probably because of the lack of time and attention spent on the discus' special needs.

Ryan

[aloha_discus]

Hello TnMark,
I dont want to start trouble, but you say you cant trust advice from people you dont know, then why are you here this is all about opinions and advice. I have never bought discus from Mike or Cary but that will change soon because of this site. You are getting FEEDBACK from everyone that has posted here and they even post pics. TnMark just wait on purchase and keep reading ,take a look at the gallery, the breeder sec, or for that matter everything.

Ike

[allan_mark76]

If you are really serious about buying discus I would get in touch with either Cary (248) 414-5910 or Mike (216)-587-0025.

Talk to them personally and ask your questions and get to know them as a person and also as a breeder. IF you come to the conclusion that you cannot trust them then that's your decision.

Opinions in life is what shapes your view of the world.



About purchasing LFS discus - I would hesitate from buying LFS discus as the quality is just not there. As you mature into this hobby you will find a lot of problems physically and cosmetically with LFS Discus. Also it's come to my impression that LFS discus are not healthy to begin with and you will find yourself in an upward battle as to what's going on with your discus and blame yourself not the LFS. "YES" supporting your LFS is great, but buying such delicate fish from them is not the right way to go. If you are set in buying from the LFS just be prepared as to what's in store. I've seen some diamonds in a ruff at some LFS. It's your money in the end $ $ $ $ $ $.

A-

[saints27]

Unless your LFS are breeding there own stock where do you think they came from???????
Local breeders maybe?
And of course they are selling them for the same price that they purchased them for!
Its just my personal opinion but i will never buy Discus from an LFS as they are generally a lower grade , not looked after as well as a breeder does (feeding, water changes etc)and not to mention they are 3 times the price.
I live in Australia and a lovely lady from Canada on this forum introduced me to a breeder that lives near me ,she recommended him, I went and looked at his fish and have never regretted it he taught me so much and still does.
As I said just my opinion.

Jamie

[Nate]

TnMark-Good for you! You are entitled to your own opinion and thank you for sharing it.

Not all LFS' were created equal. I've seen some that had great discus and were very knowledgeable. It all depends on their source.

How can you question the logic of someone who want's to see the product before putting his money on the table? I don't routinely buy anything without seeing it first.

I've been burned...badly....by one of the prominent discus breeders that is hyped up all over the net. 5 fish out of 6 were runts, the other 1 was parrot beaked. The runts were no fault of my own considering that the other six fish I got from a different breeder on the same day grew out very well. Some of those fish have since been incorporated into another breeders program.

Nate