1st casualty! Please help!

[neo_44]

:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :'( :'( :'( :'( :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

I lost 1 discus last night...I need advice before I lose another...

Info: 55g bare bottom 90% (small amount of gravel on one end)
Ammonia 0, Nitrate 0-0.1, Nitrate <5
temp: 86 degrees PH: 7.2
filtration: hydro III internal sponge, aquaclear 300 with 2 sponges
Food: Nutrafin flakes most of the time, freeze dried tubifex worms, frozen shrimp cut up (rinsed in a cup of tank water 1st)
Originally five 1.5" discus.
W/C's - averaging 10-20% a day ( i use aquaplus water conditioner on tap water b4 adding the water to the tank)
*I always siphon or net out the remaining food about 15min after feedings

The story:
On sunday, after a 20% w/c, 1 discus began crashing around and spinning in circles. This was ongoing with this one fish. The other 4 seemed 100% ok. The one fish finally settled down after about an hour, but every once in awhile he'd get spooked and crash around again. It was midnight when he finally died. He looked really dark except his face. (This one fish was sold to me and he had a tail deformity, almost like his body was permanently curved. He seemed ok for the 2 weeks I've had him. I did notice he never really would join the other 4. He was almost always on his own except at feeding time).

One thing to note, I had 2 cory catfish, and 1 had died the day before. Not really any symptoms to note. I added salt 1tbsp/10g

I just did a 50% w/c this morning because I noticed my smallest discus is showing signs of stress. He stays in a corner, his color is slightly darker but he's not breathing hard. The other 3 roam around the tank and were not disturbed during my w/c but the smallest was stressed. I noticed him get really nervous and he started swimming around the hydro III really fast about 3 times. Now he's back in his corner. He sometimes joins the others but mostly he's in the corner.

There is one bully in the tank who is almost always dark and he harasses the others at feeding time. The smallest has never eaten much since I've had him because of this.

What should I do?!?!!?!?!?!? 3 are perfectly fine, I'm worried about the 4th.
I've been feeding "clean foods" ie flakes most of the time in an effort to keep the water as clean as possible.
I'll try to post a pic of them if I can.
Thanks in advance...

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
do you know if your water has chloramines in it. I recently read a review of some products and aquaplus water conditioner was listed as one that stated it removed chloramine but only contained sodium thiosulfate ( for chlorine removal).
No idea if this is true...
The review is here...

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

the manufacturers spec...

http://www.hagenpet.com/usa/aquatic/...01076510020101

my advise... is question the efficiency of your water treatment.. sounds like something is stressing the fish in the tank, and since its observed after water changes..I'd look to your water.


do your aerate your water in a holding tank?

-al

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Neo:
Thank you for including so much information in your post.

With your Cory dying the day before and your test kit registering nitrIte it does sound like a water problem. Why don't you buy some Prime or other conditioner that treats chloramine too. Keep testing your water for ammonia and nitrITe. Your filter may have been compromised from adding chloramined water to your tank.

I am not a fan of adding straight tap water. I think you should get a holding tank, add your dechlor product, heat and agitate the water prior to water changes.

Let us know what happens . . .

[neo_44]

thanks Al,

Argh! I've been doubling the dose of aquaplus all this time thinking its removing the chloramine and it isn''t! > Sheesh, now I can't even trust what's on a packaged label!!

I'll admit, I was warned to aerate my holding tub but I hadn't. (I will now, anything that might help). What does aerating the water do? I had previously used only aged water for my other fish until now.

So should I stop using the aquaplus? I've been doing straight tap water changes instead of aging the water in the holding tub since I started using aquaplus. The reason I went away from the holding tub is that I don't have a practical location for it with an outlet nearby. Can I just move the tub out beside the tank, aerate it for an hour or so before I do a w/c?

In the meantime, what should I do with my little guy? He's kinda pointing his head down a little most of the time and staying in the same spot. He did try to swim a little and I saw him have trouble keeping vertical for a few seconds...

[neo_44]

thanks Carol,

In the time that I spent with the last reply, I've noticed the little guy crashed around for a few seconds just like the one that died last night. :-[
He's darkened up a little more, but he's back in his corner. I hope he pulls through. The other 3 are just begging for food everytime I check the tank, but I don't want to feed until the little guy starts to look better.

Carol, what is Prime? Is that the manufacturer?

I think my bio filter must have been compromised. 2 days ago, I rinsed out both sponges in the aquaclear (in the siphoned tank water) but I thought not rinsing the hydro III would keep my bacteria levels ok. Now with the chloramine issue, I'm worried. I'll test the levels again soon.

[Carol_Roberts]

Prime is the brand name of a dechlor product. Go to your fish store and see what they have. First call your water dept and see if they use chlorine or chloramine for water treatment. What town do you live in? Maybe some else on the board will know about your water and can recommend a dechlor product. No sense in doing extra water changes if the water is causing the problem . . .

[angel12]

if your water does have chloramine in it then kent do a product also called Ammonia Detox it neutralizes Chloramine NOTE this product is effective but sometimes depdending on what test kits you use you will show a Ammonia reading even though there is no ammonia in the tank ..this is clearly stated on the back of the product but I have used this here in the UK where my water is chloramine treated its not nice stuff as you cant get rid of it by natural ageing it is bonded with the chlorine ... with the nitrite reading you have as the above posts from the experts have pointed it could be your water ... Good Luck

[jeep]

Prime is made by Sea-Chem. It should be available at most pet stores but much more cost efficient from an on-line supplier like Big Al's. I use Pond Prime. It's double strength for about just a few cents more.

It does sound like water issues here. I would try to get some storage containers, enough to do a 100% water change every 24 hours in case of an emergency, and change your tank water as much as possible with good/aged water.

Been there! Good luck...

Brian

[neo_44]

thanks angel, jeep and carol,

Just researched the tap water quality, only chlorine is added, no chloramine.

Latest tests show ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. The little discus seemed to be getting better, but now is just laying on his side. I wish he'll pull through.

I will try the aged, aerated water from now on. My question is, why must the water be aerated? And how can Hagen produce Aquaplus which has no meaningful affect on the water quality? How long must I aerate the water?

[Carol_Roberts]

The water from my tap comes out at pH 6.8. It is under pressure and contains disolved carbon dioxide, an acid. When the water goes into an open container the carbon dioxide is slowly released into the atmosphere and the pH begins to rise.

I speed the process up by heating and circulating (agitating, aerating) the water in the container. With my water, GH 11, it takes about 3 hours to stabilize the water which ends at pH 7.8.

If I did a 50% water change from the tap I would immediately drop my tank pH from 7.8 to 7.3. Discus do not like that.

10% water changes will not cause much of a pH swing, but you probably need to change more water than that every day. How big are your discus now in the 55 gallon?

I wonder if your water company has recently been flushing pipes or doing repair work in your area?

[neo_44]

I did a PH test on aged water, tap water and tank water before I bought the discus. All tested roughly 7.2 (but that was just aged for 2 days+, not aerated).

I believe there has been some street work off and on lately.

The four remaining discus are approx 1.5" or so. I originally thought the 1st one that died might have had internal problems because his tail/spine was curved a little but I guess it must have been something in the water changes.

Another thing I noticed but forgot to mention was yesterday, after I added salt to the tank, the smallest discus was trying to eat it!? He just kept pecking in the area where I dropped the salt. Not sure if this is related to my problem, but I did add a little salt after the 1st cory died as well.

[Carol_Roberts]

It's OK for discus to pick at salt. Lots of creatures like salt.

If you only had 2 corys and 5 discus under 2 inches in a 55 gallon tank your 10 - 20% daily water changes were probably adequate.

If your tap and tank are pH 7.2 you don't need to agitate your water.

Sorry, I'm out of ideas . . .

[jeep]

Neo, I had some water quality issues earlier this year. All I can do is guess, but several experts agreed with my problem. If this is a water quality issue then you may consider reconstituting some RO water until it passes.

You really should have nitrates in your water. I don't see how you could get them to zero...

On the other hand... Every once in a while someone reports of a single discus crashing around. No one really knows the exact problem, but if yours had a deformity that could contribute to the problem.

Since the others appear to be ok, the Cory's may have been just a coincidence.

I would just add the salt and keep a close eye on things. If you see a problem develop, then increase salt and temp.

Brian

[neo_44]

Many thanks to Carol, Brian and everyone else who offered me help and advice.

I have no idea what could be wrong. Nitrates do read as zero, or as close to zero as it can get (i'm just trying to match colours on the test kit as best I can).

Since 3 out of 4 are perfectly healthy, it's hard to assume a water quality issue now. I wonder if it's possible to 'spook' a fish to death? I try not to disturb the fish when I do w/c's but they all get a little spooked at the start of the w/c, only to relax by the midway point. Some relax right away, others hide by the sponge filter and slowly come out. 'I don't know, just grasping at straws now...

Here are a few pics I just took, the dark one by himself is the little one in current trouble. I even tried to take pics of him spinning around. The other 3 seem ok, and stick together.

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed....here's hoping he'll recover...

[neo_44]

the little guy spinning