Need advice on new tank

[ethanhunter]

Hi,

Iam in the process of purchasing a 50g acrylic show pentagon corner tank. The tank brand name is clear for life. It will be bare bottom with some wood.

Iam debating on either going with just a hydrosponge filter in the tank or go with there built in filtration which is called Uni-Quariums which has bio balls and prefilter. Its like a wet/dry builtin with a overflow and return. The only problem is it takes up 4inches in width and probably around 20inches in length on each back panel inside of tank which will take up space. I will only put 2 to 4 discus in there, I have a pair of Red marbles discus that will be in there. I was thinking of just going with the hydrosponge filter, I heard they are really good, that way the discus will have alot more room. As for the Uni-Quarium filtration, it looks pretty good and I can hide the heater in there and also cut a piece of sponge and use it as a prefilter. I will probably also add the hyrosponge to. but the downfall is space. What should I do? 50g pentagon is the only size I can fit in the corner. any advice is appreciated. right now Iam leaning on just putting the hydrosponge filter in for added space.

Here are pics of the tank I will get.

http://www.myfishtank.com/default.as...is&tankdesc=20

http://www.myfishtank.com/default.as...nks&tankdesc=5

[Greg Richardson]

I'd go with two hydro's. They be enough and I bet less maintence.

[Willie]

With the large water changes required for discus, chemical and mechanical filtration becomes less important. The most important filtration is biological and the sponges do a great job. Go for the simple approach -- less is more.

Willie

[ethanhunter]

thanks guys, I really appreciate your help, I will just go with a hydrosponge. how good are the hydrosponge compared to powerfliters and wet/drys?

[Willie]

I recommend you go with two of the largest size (Hydro V) stacked for a 50-gal tank. You can use an air line, but I prefer a powerhead to run the setup. Your water will stay crystal clear.

Willie

[Mughal]

Get an Eheim or Magnum canister, put it under the tank. It's the most reliable, uncumbersome, piece of equipment you'll ever buy. It'll take up less than 4 inches of space on the back of your aquarium. You'll be happier with that than a sponge filter. By creating a oxygen free environment the bioculture will be hundreds of times better, you'll have less diseases in your tank and so forth. Almost ANY bacteria can live on a hyrosponge filter (I know I work in a lab where I have plated my filter media for fun and see the growout of bacteria for each) and the sponges harbor less than 5% of the beneficial bacteria (the other 95% are parasitic or don't do a thing to help your tank)

Inside a canister filter (I like any Eheim or the Magnum 350) the anaerobic habitat is opposite w/90% nitrifying bacteria and 10% other. If you USE YOUR HEAD you'll know that just about any bacteria can/will live in a wet sponge with plenty of light/food/air. But if you take away the air, the types of bacteria which can thrive are seriously reduced, and the type of bacteria which uses ammonia is anaerobic (does not use oxygen).

[Willie]

Benj;

You need to take a refresher course in biochem. In the presence of oxygen, the reaction proceeds as follows:

NH4+ --> NO2- --> NO3-

In the absence of oxygen, you have denitrification. The problem, however, is that it also leads to hydrogen sulfide production, ultimately formation of highly toxic elements. Maximum aeration is the key to nitrogen cycling in an aquarium.

Note that conditions inside canister filters are not oxygen free, just low oxygen. Canister filters work great for mechanical and chemical filtration. They only go anaerobic when you shut them down. Turn off your canisters for 24 hours, open them up and smell the impact of anaerobic growth.

Willie Loh, Ph.D.
Microbiology

[Mughal]

LOL, yeah where is O2 in that reaction?

In a mature aquarium, ammonia is oxidised by bacteria to form nitrites. The chemical reaction which occurs is shown below:

NH4+(ammonia) + 2 H2O(water) >>> NO2-(nitrite) + 8 H+(hydrogen ions)

*note the bacteria use these H+ ions to produce ATP just like our mitochondria use the H+ gradient on the inner membrane of the mitochondria.

The bacteria can use Ammonia to make energy, if they couldn't they would not even bother absorbing Ammonia.

[Mughal]

Bytheway the next reaction does not contain 02 (oxygen) either!

Nitrite is oxidised by bacteria to form nitrate. The chemical reaction which occurs is shown below:

NO2-(nitrite) + H2O(water) >>> NO3-(nitrate) + 2 H+(hydrogen ions)

*note the H+ ions are used by the bacteria to produce ATP (all living organisms "currency" for energy.

The moral of the story is: "less Oxygen is better, because the GOOD bacteria do NOT use it for metabolism."

Willie thanks for your input but you were really wrong. Obviously a canister isn't Air free but it's much better than putting the bacterial culture anywhere near a bubbling powerhead. Thanks for your input though, I know you can help me with Discus

[Mughal]

References:

Juretschko, S., G. Timmermann, M. Schmid, K.-H. Schleifer, A. Pommerening-Roser, H.-P Koops and M. Wagner. 1998. Combined molecular and conventional analyses of nitrifying bacterium diversity in activated sludge: Nitrosococcus mobilis and Nitrospira-like bacteria as dominant populations. Applied and Environmental Microbiology. Vol. 64:3042-3051.

Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, and Timothy A. Hovanec. Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY, Dec. 2001, p. 5791-5800

McDevitt, C., P. Burrell, L.L. Blackall, and A. G. McEwan. Aerobic nitrate respiration in a nitrite-oxidising bioreactor. 2000. FEMS Microbiology Letters 184: 113-118.


Hovanec, T. A. and E. F. DeLong. 1996. Comparative Analysis of Nitrifying Bacteria Associated with Freshwater and Marine Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 62, No. 8: 2888-2896.

[Willie]

Benj;

You'll note that the title of two of the references refers to respiration and oxidation. These are reactions involving oxygen. All the bacteria listed are aerobic species. My Ph.D. dissertation was on bacterial physiology. We're probably boring the forum, so I'll leave it at that.

Willie

[Dood Lee]

Benj;

Canister filters work great for mechanical and chemical filtration.

Um, what? The common consensus among a vast majority of aquarists is that next to wet/dry filters, canisters are the next best type of filter when it comes to biological filtration. Canisters actually suck at mechanical.

BTW, sponges also happen to be one of the worst type of mediums available for beneficial bacteria growth. Even lava rock is better than a sponge.

[cowboy steve]

Go with the built in wet/dry.

Run a sponge for fun.

I've never had a problem with wet/dry on any type of sytem.

I can't get all Senor Science on you, my degrees are in History.

[Carol_Roberts]

I don't have a science degree, but I do have lots of discus experience. I vote for the sponge filter and lots of water changes

[Dood Lee]

Since the tank will have a builty in wet/dry in the back, why not just use it? Wet/Drys offer superior biological filtration. No amount of hydrosponges you can add to the tank will match it. And since it is built in, you can add your heater into the filter section and not have anything in you actual tank. All your equipment will be hidden in the back, so you can have the tank without clutter.