Angel Fish experts - Help needed

[pcsb23]

I have some F1 scalare angels and I need help to determine the sex of them. I have 6 in total, looks like at least 4 have paired off, but how do you tell which is which if you have never seen them lay eggs??

Any help is appreciated.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm fairly new to Angels, but IME the females are slightly smaller and more elegant looking. The males have a somewhat of a cichlid hump which to me makes them appear a bit course. HTH.

[pcsb23]

I'm fairly new to Angels, but IME the females are slightly smaller and more elegant looking. The males have a somewhat of a cichlid hump which to me makes them appear a bit course. HTH.

I had been told that by someone, didn't know if it was right, soooo in the pics the first one is male? and the second female?

What happens if there is no hump?? is the hump always there? Sorry if these are dumb Q's but...

[Tony_S]

Hey Paul

yes, definately male in the first, female in the second.

Tony

[LizStreithorst]

I ain't no expert but I agree with Beth.

[pcsb23]

Thanks, Beth, Tony & Liz.

[Paul Lucas]

What happens if there is no hump?? is the hump always there?

tuch, tuch - humps on males - are there humps on discus!!??

Paul, an old guy at Arundel Aquatics, and he picked me many pairs long ago, said look at them head on - female has slightly rounded abdomen and 'wider ventrals' and the male is, just like in the human race, more slender lol!!! I'm sure there was more to it than that but give it a go - if they're mature it'll work as it does in discus

[pcsb23]

tuch, tuch - humps on males - are there humps on discus!!??

Not on good ones

Paul, an old guy at Arundel Aquatics, and he picked me many pairs long ago, said look at them head on - female has slightly rounded abdomen and 'wider ventrals' and the male is, just like in the human race, more slender lol!!! I'm sure there was more to it than that but give it a go - if they're mature it'll work as it does in discus

I shall give it a go!

[traco]

I've heard the story about the males have a hump, females no.

I've got a question for you, Paul. What is the difference between scalares and the angelfish we usually see in the pet shops? Are they all scalares and then get broken down into marbles, golds, blacks, etc...?

[pcsb23]

I honestly don't know, like discus there are but few true wild strains of angels, I could be wrong but broadly scalare and altum. Through inter breeding/mutation the various domestic starins have developed, much like pigeon bloods etc..

What I really like about these fish is their vigour, they are really strong fish and look "right" if that makes sense.

There are people on here much better qualified to answer your question than me, like Al (brew), Ryan(Smith) and Dave (raglanroad), and not forgetting Beth! Maybe they will jump in.

[kdazzel]

I think they both look like males.

My breeding angels the female is smaller with way longer fins on the top and bottom the male is bigger bodied but shorter fins on top and bottom,

you'll know for sure when you see the breeding tubes

kdazzel

[Ryan]

Barb, "scalare" is the species name. There are two definite forms of angels: Pterophyllum scalare and Pterophyllum altum. All domestic strains of angelfish are most likely scalare. There is at least one other species of angelfish -- most refer to it as Pterophyllum leopoldi, but there are also old texts that mention Pterophyllum dumerilii and Pterophyllum emeiki. Supposedly the last two are incorrect and do not exist. See, discus aren't the only fish that are confusing

Altums are imported a lot and sought after by angel hobbyists, but they are similar to heckels in the sense that they are nearly impossible to breed in captivity. Some have claimed to succeed, but there's been little proof offered.

So all tank-bred varieties of angels (marbles, golds, leopards, halfblacks, smokeys, etc.) were from original silver scalares like Paul's. They were basically genetic mutations that were isolated and bred to develop new forms, much the way discus are "created".

Now, as for the pictures... yes, I agree that the male is the first fish. However, it should be noted that sometimes female angelfish will develop that "hump" and sometimes females will be large and dominant, leading folks to believe they are males. So it's not always 100% accurate. The fish do not always develop a hump. I've had more males without a hump than with one.

If you have "pairs," look at them from the front. The females will have a rounder, more plump abdomen and the males will be thinner. Remember -- females will pair together. So if you haven't seen viable eggs or live fry yet, there's always the possibility that you have same-sex pairs.

Ryan

[Ryan]

I think they both look like males.

My breeding angels the female is smaller with way longer fins on the top and bottom the male is bigger bodied but shorter fins on top and bottom,

you'll know for sure when you see the breeding tubes

kdazzel

The finnage is really not a good thing to go by, unfortunately. Fin length varies from fish to fish and is one of the least uniform things about angels. Especially now with the veil and superveil genetics being hidden in most domestic angels. You could have standard-finned angels that spawn veil fry with long fins. So it's definitely not a factor in determining sex.

The tube thing, on the other hand, is probably the most reliable way I've found. As in discus, the females have a blunt, thick breeding tube while the males have a thin, pointed one. The female's tube appears several days before spawning -- if you see the male's tube, spawning's probably going to happen within the next day.

In Paul's pictures you can see the tip of the breeding tube on the female. I've found that with mature spawning angels, the female's tube rarely retracts completely -- the tip is almost always visible. Another thing to look for when sexing adult angels...

Ryan

[Ed13]

Barb, "scalare" is the species name. There are two definite forms of angels: Pterophyllum scalare and Pterophyllum altum. All domestic strains of angelfish are most likely scalare. There is at least one other species of angelfish -- most refer to it as Pterophyllum leopoldi, but there are also old texts that mention Pterophyllum dumerilii and Pterophyllum emeiki. Supposedly the last two are incorrect and do not exist. See, discus aren't the only fish that are confusing

Don't know, leopoldis do look significantly different. What about the red spotted peruvians(yes angels not discus)
There is also a new school of thought that views Orinoco altums as the true altum and leaves other "altums" as maybe another species or even as a scalare cross altum. I guess there is much to be studied still
but, I'm not a biologist nor a angel fan so.....

[Ryan]

Yes, P. leopoldi are significantly different. They have a more oblong shape and their markings are different.

Then you have the argument that "Peruvian" altums are just a form of scalare, while some think they're a totally separate species. So, as with discus, the wilds are a mess and there's still a lot of shifting back and forth about the classification of wild angels.

There's also a theory that P. scalare is one form, but that several other very similar forms exist, and that they interbreed readily in the wild and are often imported all under the name P. scalare... so the possibility exists that domestic strains are actually a mix of several similar types.

Confusing, eh?