Seeking Volunteers: Need Auto W/C information

[scolley]

I'm working on an automatic water-change product, as I've mentioned in another thread here. But to do that effectively, to adequately address the needs of the market, I need more information.

I've got two tanks at the moment, and each tank has what I consider to be auto-water change systems. They automatically perform reasonably high volume water changes on a regular basis. I never have to touch them except for routine maintenance - like changing filters once a year. The water in my tanks gets changed without my intervention. And I don't get water on the floor. The simplicity this brings to my discus keeping is wonderful.

But that's what "automatic water changing" means to me. What does it mean to you?

I'm looking for volunteers (in the USA) - people that are either interested in automatic water changing, or already have it - that can spend 15-20 minutes with me in a phone interview. If that's you, and you want to help, please send me a PM.

I'll interview you at whatever time we agree. To protect your anonymity, I'll provide a toll free number that you can call, and we can use the username that you use here. Even then, I'll consider any information you provide completely confidential.

Information that I'll be seeking:

1. How you change your water now. Everything about it.
2. What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.
3. Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.
4. What your expectations are regarding the cost/value of such a product.

IMO the market today does not present hobbyists, or small scale professional importer/breeders, with a good auto water change product. It provides parts. That's how I built both of my systems, by creating a design and assembling the parts. That's not a product, that advanced DIY.

I've already purchased most of the automatic water change "products" on the market as a part of my research. I don't use any of them. IMO they are inadequate, and still require a good deal of innovation on the part of the consumer to use. They really are just "parts" too, and not a holistic solution.

If you would be willing to provide me with your own perspective about what Automatic Water Change is, or should be for you, I'd be deeply grateful. And it might even lead to getting a nice solution into the hands of hobbyists like us. So, if you'd like to help, please send me a PM.

Thanks in advance!

[scolley]

Bump.

When I put this request out, I realized it didn't call for any posts, so it would get stale, and bumping might be needed.

I did get one volunteer from one of our more prominent members. Thank you! You know who you are... It was a wonderful conversation, where I learned a lot. Thanks!

Anyone else? I can't help without a lot more data...

[rowedder]

Hey Scolley,
You have a VERY interesting post!! I have designed my own automatic water changing system myself, very reliable and totally "automatic". Have you drawn out a schematic? I'd love to chat with you on this subject. PM me when you can. Take care.

[scolley]

PM sent rowedder. Thanks!

And yes, I do have schematics at my rarely updated blog - www.wetplantlogic.com . But I'm not sure those schematics would apply to many people here, they are better suited to closed loop systems and planted tanks.

[GrillMaster]

Sent ya a PM Steve...

[ashaysathe]

Honestly Steve.. I wish I had seen this before your poll. Let me answer a few here and lets talk over the phone.

1. How you change your water now. Everything about it.

Location (very important in this automation as that dictates margin of error) Living room. There is zero margin of error.
Process today: W/C are totally manual (not to the extent of carrying buckets). I use a tube from the tank into a 6 gallon trash can that has a pump taking the water to the drain. Manual bottom siphoning. This process is revered while filling up.
Total run time: unwinding tubes to cleaning floors when done about 20 mins.

What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.

My setup does not allow me permanent plumbing, unless there is any concealed way of plumbing. Tank position to bathroom is about 15 feets.

Automation product expectations:
Working assumption: I am prepared for manual setting up the tubes and putting it away when done (assuming permanent plumbing is out of question)
1. Automated bottom siphoning is a huge win.
2. Bottom cleaning is about 5 mins. The remainder 7 mins or so is draining water. Some means by which I can automate draining water off after desired quantity or time.
3. Vice-versa is also true and even more important - A zero failure means to fill the tank for desired level. Something like a loud whistle that will say "get your butt to the faucet to shut it off" (not literally i mean a signal/loud alert of some sort)

Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.

1. I have a singular problem unlike many. Once is 12-18 months we visit India for 3-4 weeks. Although it has never happened since I got hit by discus bug, but clock is ticking. This product will be a huge huge benefit in this sceanrio. I can have my neighbor come and check and atmost have him shut the system off till I am back in case of emergency.
Even if I can get this product to work for me for this 3-4 week period when we all are away, I think its a success for me.

2. Unmonitored water drain and fill - can have a cup of tea while W/C

3. Vision: If I am busy may be wife can do it.

What your expectations are regarding the cost/value of such a product.
Should be less than Albino Lepord Spotted SnakeSkin.
Discus world seems to defiy any and all "economic challenges"

Additional Comments:
I have optimized the process where possible and may very well be that automation is not the way for me given the situation. But in a "conservative" (aka non isolated) setup like mine, any breeze away from labor after 10 hr days would be nice.

[waters10]

I'd be very interested in a solution for this. But I think most solutions are going to be based on people with multiple tanks. I'm replying here, to show that people with single tanks might be interested on this as well!

How you change your water now. Everything about it.
Right now, it's python gravity fed to a powder room sink to remove water and the same python to add water to ageing barrel. I then use a mag drive pump to fill the tank, from the ageing barrel that sit underneath the tank.

What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.
- Considering I have 1 tank only, I'd hope for something that's not too expensive, since it's harder to justify higher cost for a single tank. If that meant I'd have to have 1 manual step in the process, I'd be fine with it. Maybe pressing one button to start the process and having to come back to finish the process.
- Reliability is a big point, since tank is in a carpeted living room ... I know, not a good idea.
- I'd like to have something that use hot and cold water, so I don't have to spend $$$ heating cold water to correct temperature.
- If this system has something that includes auto bottom cleaning, I'd pre-order it right now!! But based on your previous threads, I think it doesn't.

Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.
- I'd probably use it only when I'm at home, but just being able to start the process and do something else, would be huge already. If it's something that I can reliably do it while I'm away, even better.
- More importantly, I usually spend a month away from home, so a system that I can easily explain to a friend so he can do 1 or 2 weeks water changes easily and reliably, would be the main reason I'd get something like this.

What your expectations are regarding the cost/value of such a product.
Since it would be used for 1 tank setup for now, I don't want to spend a ton of money. But if it's something somebody can use easily and reliably while I'm away for longer periods of time, value goes way up for me and I'd be willing to spend more.

One question I have, is about the requirements to use a system like this. I don't expect you to package everything, including how to get hot/cold water to ageing barrels, or how and where you drain the water, so I'm assuming that in order to use a system like this, I'd probably have most of the plumbing done, correct?

[scolley]

Ashay and waters10 - thank you VERY much for such informative posts!

I don't want to say too much about the "market" as I see it, because I really would like to make product that benefits the community, and make a buck or two in the process, before someone else beats me to it.

But I don't mind saying that it is not "a" market. It's multiple markets. People like yourselves with one or two tanks and cannot tolerate a high cost, and then there are people with a significant number of tanks where an investment starts to make sense. And there's a whole lot in between.

The complexity of the possible number of "solutions" is - I'm sure - why more is not available today. But information like your IS beneficial to me. Thank you. And the "little guy" will not be forgotten.

Thanks.

PS - waters10 your questions about aging, temperature, how and where to drain, are all a part of the large set of factors that make this a problem that does not have a "one size fits all" solution, and part of what makes it an interesting challenge. But I'm confident that a solution can be found. I may even be getting close to it already... My problem is knowing whether my assumptions are correct, and worth my time and investment to create a solution.

[scolley]

All - I had the privilege of several more interviews today. Thank you! I learned something in each one. And every time I learn something new about this problem, I get a little bit (sometime a lot) closer to being able to finalize on a solution design.

So, if you are reading these posts, and having a good automatic water change solution is something that would make your life better - or allow you to change your fish keeping habits (more tanks, more fry rearing, heavier tank stocking) - then please consider contacting me to talk for 30 minutes. Each interview gets me a little closer to understanding the market, which is the first step to any product development.

Regards - Steve

PS - If/when I market something, I have already promised the opportunity to test pre-market designs to those people that have been kind enough to provide me with 30 minutes of interview time. Thus far, they are lining up. So if you are interested, the first test units (if/when built) are going fast...

[Apistomaster]

Steve,
Since we last discussed this, I thought of a method that might work for simply changing water but not for bottom waste removal.
I already fill and drain my tanks using an RV hose with a PVC fittings joined to form and inverted "U".
I'm thinking a drainage system using a modified overflow siphon in conjunction with an Aqualifter vacuum pump on an Expandashelf could be used to drain tanks being filled from the faucet or even the membrane RO reject water for most fish. The overflow siphon would just need a drain hose long enough to reach out my door as I already do when I normally siphon.
The RO reject water is cool but flows slowly enough that the heater should compensate.
Not too fancy but finding a use for so much RO reject water produced when making RO water would save a lot of water; at least allow it to be used once before wasting it permanently.
A garden hose timer/shut off would work with the mixing faucet and a timer would work with the RO reject water once the times and flows are calculated to know how long is enough flow time to achieve the desired total % of replacement water has been reached.
Neither method will clean the crud off the bottom. I think most home aquariums must have this part done manually.

Just an added note. RO reject water is only slightly mineral enriched above the level in the incoming source water. Perhaps 20% more at most. My water is only at 340 ppm TDS so an increase of 20% would only raise it toa little over 400 ppm, still acceptable for the majority of my fish.

[scolley]

Thanks Larry. But I'm not sure I follow you entirely. Maybe an email?

Thanks.

[scolley]

Well, it's about 90 days later and a good number of the good people of Simply Discus volunteered to help. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

The results of the interviews were pretty much a confirmation of what I suspected. But if you are thinking about creating a product, you don't want to "think", you want to "know". And your help by providing your time helped me close that gap. Thanks.

RESULTS
As you can easily imagine, there is a very diverse set of people and needs with regard to automatic water changing. So the solution to this problem will not be "one size fits all". In fact, I think the market is broken down into several distinct segments, and each one has rather unique requirements.

Without giving anything away about the products, I think it is safe to say there are three primary markets.

1) One huge market of people that use next to zero technology today to do water changes. And they aren't willing to invest much to make that easier. This is a huge market. But they aren't going to spend much either.

2) The middle market does use - or is willing to use - technology or hard plumbing - to assist with water changes. They believe that a modest investment in making their lives less constrained by water changes can be money well spent. And they are not technology adverse. And can be depended upon to do a bit of plumbing.

3) The third market is very small, but has many, many tanks. These people have generally already run their plumbing, but are open to making things easier. That said, they have so many tanks that any significant cost (on a per tank basis) makes many solutions out of their comfort zone.

So I'm hitting the middle market first. After cranking out countless technical diagrams, aligning them up to the various solution segments, I finished the plumbing of my first prototype today. I slapped it up to my quarrentine tank, and it managed the 50% drain, and then the 100% fill (without overflowing!) like a charm. It's going to be augmented with some electronics, so that's gonna take a bit more time. And after that I've got to figure out how to make these puppies cheaper. 'Cuz this prototype took WAY too long to build.

After that I'll hit the first market. That will be easier actually, because much of the proof-of-concept is being taken care of in my first. more techinically advanced "middle market" product. After that, the simple, less expensive gizmo will be easy.


So thanks for the help folks. I hope that before too long I'll be calling you back for beta testing.


PS - Did I mention that it can clean your tank bottom too?

[rfeiller]

what is the rejection of you RO membranes Larry? mineral rejection on my 1200GPD system when I was operating it was 99.7% recirculated through a 55 gal drum to where rejection water was about 20 %. do you have a single or multiple membranes? if multiple are they in series or parralell. sorry for being nosey.

appreciate your input in the forum you obviously have a lot of experience.
always tried to keep a few rams and apistos around, great little fish. talk about a bantom rooster complex.

[Apistomaster]

what is the rejection of you RO membranes Larry? mineral rejection on my 1200GPD system when I was operating it was 99.7% recirculated through a 55 gal drum to where rejection water was about 20 %. do you have a single or multiple membranes? if multiple are they in series or parralell. sorry for being nosey.

appreciate your input in the forum you obviously have a lot of experience.
always tried to keep a few rams and apistos around, great little fish. talk about a bantom rooster complex.

I'm glad you asked. I have been meaning to check how well my Kent HI-S, 60 gpd unit is working after 3 years.
I start with ~340 ppm.
I am not using the mixed bed ion exchange resin cartridge.
My storage water is testing as 3.0 ppm.
If I did my calculations right, that is ~12% of what the source water mineral content is.
That doesn't seem very good.
Looking at it another way , the product water is 97% pure. That looks OK for a 3 year old membrane. If I used the resin cartridge I would probably be able to get ~99% pure product.
The production rate has diminished as the temperature of the mains water has dropped but I haven't made enough measurements to know exactly how much difference it has made from the summer time temperature production. It just seems slower but I am also using more and in a hurry so it may be an illusion.
Other variable is that in the summer, I use the outdoor spigots and that water pressure is higher. So higher pressure+warmer water=better production rate.
You know how the Kent Marine Hi-S Unit is designed, just one membrane.
At the time, ~60 gpd seemed like enough but I find myself using more RO water and would now like to have my barrels fill up faster.
I thought my membrane might be working less well than it appears. The membrane replacement price is about $100. I would rather use the $100 towards the cost of a 200 gpd Unit for>$300.
I use most of my RO water in my Hypancistrus and L134 Catfish breeding projects. Those and some Corydoras spp seem to be very responsive to RO as simulated wet season cycling. The Corydoras eggs have much better hatch rates in softer water ad the Plecos seem more willing to spawn. I also have Aspidoras pauciradiatus and Aspidoras "mendezi?" spawning but I'm having problems getting eggs to hatch. I may have to bring the pH down to >6.0?
I use tap water for routine water changes in all my wild Discus tanks but I would probably be more likely to use more RO with them if my production can keep up with the larger volume of water they go through. My tap water is not all that bad compared to towns only 30 miles away on the Palouse Prairie, a major farming area. The applied fertilizers have caused elevated nitrates and phosphates in their ground water. We have an entirely different water source; 300 feet deep wells in a section of the Columbia Basin Plateau lava flows. This water is 1000's of years old.
I only have one breeding pair of Stendker Brilliant Turquoise presently and their hatch rates have been fine in tap water.
Edit: I'm also using mostly RO water with my SA Dwarf Cichlids. I have some Taeniacara candidi and Dicrossus maculatus for the first time and I'm trying to spawn them. I bought them as small juveniles and they are just barely old enough to hope for something to happen. I has taken me a long time to get around to keeping these two species and spawning them has special importance to me.
I also have Apistogramma trifasciata, A. panduro and A. erythruma(formerly known as Apistogramma sp Rio Mamore)

[srud]

I am keenly interested in this. Any updates?