Hypothetical Heckel Question to ponder...

[brewmaster15]

So with all this talk of Breeding heckels and establishing a viable line of domestically tank bred pure heckels derrived from true Heckels .... I'm wondering at what point a True Heckel stops being a true Heckel in a breeding Program? At what point does human intervention and selection, even if its unintentional... actually change this species so its no longer really what it was to start out with?

Do we Just not cull anything ...live and let live? Won't it be difficult to not subconciously change and "improve" the strain...like was done to the wild Blues to make most of our current domestics. I see that as a very possible pitfall in attempting to preserve wild Symphysodon discus (heckels) thru a breeding program...or any wild species for that matter..

I realize I am putting the cart kilometers before the horse here... but just curious what you all think!


Should make for an interesting discusssion at the least.

thanks,
al

[ShinShin]

One could say that a wild Heckel stops becoming wild once they are captured and put into a tank. What once was no longer is. However, for the sake of discussion, let's say that a wild captured discus will be refered to as a wild discus.

When would S.discus stop becoming S.discus would probabally be when they are outcrossed with another discus species other than another S.discus.

If Heckels become a standard in Asian breeders tanks, one would expect that S.discus would take the same course as any other domesticated discus we have available today. Selective breeding would produce better quality discus than what would be found in the wild. We would also have some of the worst as well, because people would refuse to pay for the best, leaving the Heckel market in the West with low quality discus like we have now. The West wants the best, but will only pay for the least. Of course, this will only be a discussion, because as already proved in Asia, there is no market for Heckel discus that makes producing them feasable.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

Mat,

When would S.discus stop becoming S.discus would probabally be when they are outcrossed with another discus species other than another S.discus.

That makes sense but wasn't really what I was asking.... F1, F2 F3 etc...may still be S. discus Genetically on a species level...but They aren't wilds anymore....and the very act of selecting which F1s to keep and raise and breed just changed the genetic population....and what The future generations may look like.....Its all theoretical but I think its worth Considering.

I look at what was selected by the early Pioneers from wild Blue stock...and look at what we have today without any real species outcrossing... If I understand the recent genetics papers well enough...most of what we have today domestically is related largely to wild Blues...not Greens or Heckels.

I think if we are not careful it would be very easy to wind up changing in a few short generations what we call S.discus......or otherwise put it may be very hard to maintain tank bred line of heckels to keep looking like a wild Heckel!

-al

[scolley]

So with all this talk of Breeding heckels and establishing a viable line of domestically tank bred pure heckels derived from true Heckels .... I'm wondering at what point a True Heckel stops being a true Heckel in a breeding Program?

Good question Al.

IMO it's just like dogs, cats, or any other domesticated species. Once you remove them from the wild and subject them to selective breeding, whether from limited mate selection or direct intervention, you now have a domesticated animal.

As domesticated as a dog that has undergone such selection for thousands of years? Certainly not. But is a domesticated dog the same as the wild dogs humans first encountered? Certainly not. So when did wild become domesticated? Where is that line drawn? It's all such a huge gray area, I don't see how it can be any other demarcation point than the 1st influenced generation.

IMO, once you influence that breeding (and many will argue influence of behavior too), you've just begun F1 of a domesticated strain of fish.

[Darren's Discus]

I think that Matt hit the nail on the head,once we take something from the wild it ceases to be wild,for no longer does it have to fight for food we change it from it's wild form by feeding it with colour enhanced food,also depending on water quality as we know when we breed discus it can produce some abnormallity's including high fins.so for instance say we bred heckle x heckle and the batch threw some high fin specimens i'm sure most (i know i would) would try to get a pair from these young,which would then be changing the origonal form.but once again at what stage does a wild cease to be wild ? when we (humans) remove it from its natural enviroment.imo


cheers

[Ed13]

A wild discus can only be called so as long as it swam in the wild Amazonian waters. So, by F1 they can no longer be called wild, maybe "wild type" or something else.
Obviously, nature does it's own culling process, so do we, except we based it on totally diferent characteristics. You could even say that the very fact of captivity takes care of weak individuals or those not capable of surviving the elements present on our tanks like diets, water chemistry, tank mates, pathogens, etc. The very moment they are captured they are no longer "the same"

Good question Al.

IMO it's just like dogs, cats, or any other domesticated species. Once you remove them from the wild and subject them to selective breeding, whether from limited mate selection or direct intervention, you now have a domesticated animal.

As domesticated as a dog that has undergone such selection for thousands of years? Certainly not. But is a domesticated dog the same as the wild dogs humans first encountered? Certainly not. So when did wild become domesticated? Where is that line drawn? It's all such a huge gray area, I don't see how it can be any other demarcation point than the 1st influenced generation.

IMO, once you influence that breeding (and many will argue influence of behavior too), you've just begun F1 of a domesticated strain of fish.

Interesting comparison Steve. Dogs share 99% of their genes. Selective breeding only manipulated a single strain of the DNA for the most part. They still share lots of characteristics genetically and beleive or not behavior (domestic dogs just altered their instictual behavior to their new lifestyle, but it's there and they can revert back to wild dogs, just not wolves). When you think about it, like Al mentioned for the most part, domestic discus came from Blue discus, similar from wolves to dogs. Establishing a line of Heckel discus could bring a renaissance for discus keeping, who knows what mutations or color morphs can heckel as well a other species of discus not in the hobby yet can bring!

[ShinShin]

Wouldn't the genotype be the same no matter what F number we get to? DNA from wild caught S.discus ought to be the same as an F50 S.discus, right? Only the phenotype would change from selective breeding. It would be possible that through selective breeding and any mutations that may occur, we could have pure bred Heckel Bulldogs, as well as Snow White Heckels, as well as barless Heckels (depending on what mutations arise). I see the possibilities for the Heckel to be exactly the same as the brow/blue or green discus would have to exist.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

Hi Mat,
Genetics isn't my best subject...

wouldn't the genotype be the same no matter what F number we get to? DNA from wild caught S.discus ought to be the same as an F50 S.discus, right?

Not really sure there...but I think that The "Alleles" and the effects of "Genetic Drift" would change things significantly depending on what we selectively bred....(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift).. I can see this being a bigger issue in our small population than in the large wild populations....



then again who knows...


-al

[ashaysathe]

Hypothesis assumption is mutations are not part of discussion:

In my opinion, in all scenario's a "pure 100% Heckel" bred with another "100% pure Heckel", whether it be in its natural habitat or domestic captivity, will remain to be a Heckel. My argument here is Heckel is its genetics not the environment or the habitat.
Arguably, on the flip side say a 100% pure Heckel if cross bred in "wild" with any non-heckel, F1 will not be a 100% Heckel, true?

Extending on Steve analogy, if zoo's breed panda's or polar bears, their respective F1 are still panda's and polar bears - whether wild or not should not impact its genetics.

Now, the point remains deviations happening in their "lifestyles" for being in captivity - e.g. polar bear in Bronx zoo would not be deprived of food as much as it would be in the arctic. Would this "less struggle for food (taken as an e.g. here)" make in changes in its F<<n's>> with respective to its "natural instincts" say its F<n's> might not know hunting. But they still remain polar bears.
Can these changes in lifestyle due to captivity be strong enough to make modifications to its genetics?

[Ed13]

Extending on Steve analogy, if zoo's breed panda's or polar bears, their respective F1 are still panda's and polar bears - whether wild or not should not impact its genetics.

But the resulting offspring would not be able to survive in the wild as they would lack learned knowledged from experience. In it's placed there would be new behavioral adaptations, learned through their contact with their new surroundings and humans. Meaning, they would not be wild bears

[brewmaster15]

Okay...I guess I wasn't clear enough in my question. For a minute forget the hang up on whether its S.Heckel genetically.. or technically...

Simplified explanation...In the beginning ....there was a wild Blue/Brown discus...It was a beautiful creature with a unique character... it was a wild that by today's domestic standards needed improvement...so it was "improved", even though back then...we didn't know that it needed improvement and much of what was done was probably chance.... It was manipulated and selectively bred to look like something it was not originally designed by nature to be.....today it is a Blue diamond, a red Turq, a leopard, an albino, a mellon, a Pb,, a cobalt, a snakeskin, a san merah, a rose red, a millenium gold, an altum Flora, a bulldog....anything but what it started out as.

In the beginning .... There was a wild Heckel...It was a beautiful creature...with character...It was a wild that by today's domestic standards....

The challenge in Breeding our Tank raised Heckels may turn out to be not the act of breeding them... but to Not "improve" them as we did our current domestic wild blue /brown derived discus

hth,
al

[Vern Archer]

Greetings I am a newbie to the site but have been around awhile in the hobby, I find this an interesting discussion and if I may inject my two cents. Line breeding Heckles would be a significant achievement and I believe the purpose would be to domesticate them so they would become more common in the hobby and easier to breed. It would be up to the breeder through the selection process to maintian coloration and original characteristics. In the case of wild blue and greens and even the browns its the crossing between these sub species that provided the dramatic colour variations that we see today. v

[Ed13]

Okay...I guess I wasn't clear enough in my question. For a minute forget the hang up on whether its S.Heckel genetically.. or technically...

Simplified explanation...In the beginning ....there was a wild Blue/Brown discus...It was a beautiful creature with a unique character... it was a wild that by today's domestic standards needed improvement...so it was "improved", even though back then...we didn't know that it needed improvement and much of what was done was probably chance.... It was manipulated and selectively bred to look like something it was not originally designed by nature to be.....today it is a Blue diamond, a red Turq, a leopard, an albino, a mellon, a Pb,, a cobalt, a snakeskin, a san merah, a rose red, a millenium gold, an altum Flora, a bulldog....anything but what it started out as.

In the beginning .... There was a wild Heckel...It was a beautiful creature...with character...It was a wild that by today's domestic standards....

The challenge in Breeding our Tank raised Heckels may turn out to be not the act of breeding them... but to Not "improve" them as we did our current domestic wild blue /brown derived discus

hth,
al

Now I see you r point Al, but it's not a challenge to not "improve" on them, it's down right impossible. As soon as new traits start to appear someone somewhere will manipulate it leaving behind what was. Like the original wild blue/brown of which no lineage exist from the originals only the derivates.

Tank raised amphirion perculas and ocellaris on the saltwater side may face this in the future with all the var. developed by selective breeding etc, only the "cute" factor might save the wild type.

[Eddie]

Greetings I am a newbie to the site but have been around awhile in the hobby, I find this an interesting discussion and if I may inject my two cents. Line breeding Heckles would be a significant achievement and I believe the purpose would be to domesticate them so they would become more common in the hobby and easier to breed. It would be up to the breeder through the selection process to maintian coloration and original characteristics. In the case of wild blue and greens and even the browns its the crossing between these sub species that provided the dramatic colour variations that we see today. v

Hiya V and welcome to simply, the best place some great info and meet many great people.

I agree with your statement about, would be nice to perfect the species. Heckels seem to have a higher body. I'm wondering if the high body type came crossing with heckels.

[Vern Archer]

The High body and Hi Fin that I worked with years and years ago came from Jack Wattley and I believe they were derived from the selection process of generations of wild blues and when you crossed his Hi Body Hifin with a domestic Green you end up with what you call a blue Diamond today. Its been my experience, you get variations in body shape hi body and hifin with every spawn its through the selection process that you carry the desirable shape in subsequent generations. Years ago everyone was trying to get to the solid blue fish, then everyone was trying to get an all red fish, it was the flavour of the month ($$ greed) its this temptation that took us away from true line breeding and keeping the original wild fish in its true colour form. And now everyone wants wild because good quality specimens are becoming very rare. Pursuing the Heckle is sort of the last frontier with Discus I think