Raising sub-adult discus in a planted tank??

[Mxx]

How big should discus be before they might thrive in a planted tank? Would 4" potentially work?

As I plan my first discus display tank, which will be a large planted display tank, many of you have contributed your advice to my previous question, and thanks for that. One piece of advice I keep hearing repeated is not to raise juveniles in a planted tank, and that you should only use adults instead. I've been searching the site for reasons why this is, and I'm seeing suggestions ranging from them hiding all the time to the fact that they need lots of food and therefore you can't possibly keep a planted tank clean enough. However I'm also getting different views that adults don't acclimate as well to a new tank or planted tank, and that discus often become more confident and less skittish when raised in an environment where they have the option to find cover if spooked.

I don't want to raise small juveniles, but the largest stock that I seem from most breeders is about 4". I've asked one breeder that I've been talking to if and at what cost he could rear one tankful of discus for me until they add an extra inch or two, but thus far haven't had a response.

My planned tank would be a high-tech planted tank of probably 300 gallons. (72x30x30) is what I'm looking at now. I'd have a 40 gallon bio-filter sump filled with submerged bio-medium which acts both aerobically and anaerobically in order to eliminate nitrates as well as ammonia, a plant scrubber to create a wall of terrestrial plants behind the tank, would use Phosguard to eliminate phosphates, and I'd have an ozone reactor and carbon reactor as well. I'd do water changes as often as proves necessary to maintain high water quality parameters, via an automated overflow system. The substrate would be densely planted as well, and from what I've heard from planted tank people, it would actually be likely that I'd need to dose nitrates to keep the plants in top form (which would however a secondary consideration to rearing healthy discus for me).

I was thinking of starting with maybe 18-24 four inch discus, if I can't get them any larger at a reasonable price. I could feed frozen food twice a day, and could use an automated pellet feeder to provide an additional 3 or 4 feedings. I would probably start with fish-less cycling, and then add a clean-up crew shortly thereafter, followed by the discus when things prove fully stable.

I've kept planted tanks before, so I'm not so worried about that aspect of it. But with this size of a tank, that amount of plants and filtration, and basically only the sub-adult discus to deal with I'm relatively confident that maintaining high water quality in spite of intense feeding should not be that much of a problem. And when, (or if?) they reach 6" in size then I would sell a few to get down to about 8 to 12, and eventually add some other fish as water quality permits when they reach full-size at which time I could reduce the feeding regimen.

I was thinking about raising sub-adults to maturity in a bare tank, but to do that for a dozen almost mature discus I'd still need a very large rearing tank. And I don't want to have to successively set up a 55, and a 150, and the 300 gallon tank, and a 29 quarantine tank of course, just to raise some decent discus.

Thus, I would like to hear what different people have to say about whether this would work, and if not then specifically why it might not? Thanks!

[dawrtw]

I have 22, 3-1/2" to 4" fish in a 220 gal planted tank. They are growing and nearly always out, especially at feeding time. I don't think they are growing any faster than the ones in my 46 BB tank but they don't seem to be growing any slower either. The one thing I did do however is increase the number of cats in my clean up crew. This is in hopes of staying on top of any food missed by that many discus.
Working for me.

[jball1125]

4" discus can definitely thrive in a 300 gallon tank provided you do enough water changes. Its not impossible to grow discus in a planted tank its just harder ( a lot harder ). However at 4" you should be good. Make sure you get discus that still have the potential to grow. I would suggest one of our sponsors.

[Mxx]

Tracy, that's encouraging, thanks. The topic of uneaten food was something I'd always wondered about. Does it really make any difference in terms of tank health whether uneaten food decomposes or whether it is consumed by bottom feeders? Doesn't it eventually impact the tank health and bio-load to precisely the same extent?

And Jball, apart from the care necessary for the plants, why is harder to grow discus in a planted tank? The precise why's are really the things I'm looking for in posing this question, so that I can try to address them in advance and design those pitfalls out of the system as much as possible. Is it that any detritus is difficult to remove? Or is it that plants and discus have requirements that contradict one another? I think the care necessary to achieve a decent planted tank is well worth it though, and that they can help the health of the system significantly. I do appreciate that you have to be careful with dosing CO2 and fertilizer for plants, to ensure those are not a detriment to the discus of course, but using hardy plants can help make this easier as well. If ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/&phosphates are virtually non-existent , as is often the case with even well stocked planted tanks, (and KH and PH are appropriately buffered), then are there any other factors that I could use as my guide for determining water change frequencies?

A planted tank is of course an altogether different approach than the usual bare sterile rearing tank I appreciate, but that in itself doesn't mean that it can't be done successfully I don't expect, at least so far as the system capacity is such that uneaten food and the breakdown of any mulm aren't causing any water problems. But adequate planting and filtration to cope with that is not something that many people have from the sound of it.

[dawrtw]

Waste and uneaten food both have to be dealt with. I really don't count my cats as part of my bioload. I feel like any waste they create is cancelled out by what they clean up. There are times that I feed a little heavy, if I do then I do water changes a little more often. (after feeding beef heart etc.) Practicing good common sence should always followed.

[jball1125]

Discus grow best when they are provided two things. Lots of food and lost of clean water. When you add gravel/sand to an aquarium you are making it that much harder to remove waste. However at 4 inches you could slow down on the feeding which makes the cleanup easier. I recommend that you get the plants stabalized before you get into the discus. That will help because a heavily planted tank will give you the advantage of not having ammonia spikes when adding a lot of fish.

[dbfzurowski]

Take a look at this

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumd...nics30-(Chad-H)

[Mxx]

Take a look at this

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumd...nics30-(Chad-H)

Thanks, I'd skimmed through that thread while looking for answers on another matter at the time, so it will be helpful to go through that more carefully now. So in a year's time his six discus had grown from 3" to 6.5" in a year's time in a moderately planted tank, with water changes only every week or two. I suppose that in itself proves there isn't necessarily a problem with doing it, but I'll have to read through his posts in greater detail to find out more.

[Mxx]

Discus grow best when they are provided two things. Lots of food and lost of clean water. When you add gravel/sand to an aquarium you are making it that much harder to remove waste. However at 4 inches you could slow down on the feeding which makes the cleanup easier. I recommend that you get the plants stabalized before you get into the discus. That will help because a heavily planted tank will give you the advantage of not having ammonia spikes when adding a lot of fish.

They also say that you can add a decent amount of fish the day after planting a heavily planted tank, as the plants will prevent any sort of ammonia spike. Nevertheless I'd want to make sure the system is stable and the plants are well rooted and achieving good growth rates before I'd add discus and dial down the CO2, especially if I'm to use mineralized top soil as the sub-substrate as many people recommend which can cause some fluctuations initially.

I agree that in a planted tank with substrate it is much more difficult to remove waste, and that's why I was saying in a planted tank you may have to approach things in a different way. And as with other animals, there is more than one way to skin a discus. So if you can't remove all the solid waste physically, then you can let the remaining waste be broken down and removed biologically, hence the mega biofilter and plant filtration. So instead of relying merely upon water changes alone to remove organic waste, filtration of this sort may be able to make a substantial contribution to keeping the water clean of any by-products resulting from biological activity. Thus, despite the plants and substrate, you needn't necessarily worry about the waste as it will quickly be consumed by the plants and filtration anyway, capacity permitting of course.

In any case, in your view is maintaining pristine water conditions in a planted tank the extent of the problem, or is there any other inherent difference in how discus behave in a planted tank which makes it a greater challenge?

[discuspaul]

I've kept juvie discus (all of about 3" from the outset) in 3 different moderately planted tanks over the past year or so, with what I consider to be reasonably good success. My first batch of 3" fish is now adult - beautiful Cobalt, Red Melon, RSG, and others, over 5" at this point, now being kept by my daughter. My most recent discus set-up is a 75 gal. in which I'm raising 10 juvie Red Snakeskins and Flamingos. They were acquired just a short time ago @ 3", and are currently over 4" and growing well.
I do, and have always done, about 50% w/c's 2-3 X weekly, with vacuum & meticulous tank clean up with each W/C. The discus are fed 4 - 6 X daily, every 2 or 3 hours, all they can eat in under 3-4 minutes. Vey little, if any, food ever lingers on the bottom.
The tank gets filtration via 2 - AC 110's HOB, and I use pool filter sand - which is very easily cleaned.
I've had no problems with the fish, nor the plants, the latter which get root tab ferts, and 2 X 3 weekly dosing with Excel and Comprehensive. Judging by the the Discus' behavior, they're pleased with their planted environment, and so am I. Works very well for me & I'm sticking with it - no BB for me !

[discuspaul]

P.S. IMHO the big, and only, challenge of raising discus in a planted tank is "in the mind's eye" as they say.
No question that maintaining pristine water conditions in a BB tank is an easier task - and certainly more "work" in a planted tank. However, if you're up to that ( i.e. no 'lazybones' - and I'm not suggesting that BB tank adherents are lazy - perhaps some are - the others may simply feel they can raise healthier fish quicker, and to a larger size in a BB, and perhaps that's so) - the results are rewarding in a planted environment - the fish look better, so does the tank, and I believe you'll feel better about it yourself.

[scottthomas]

How big should discus be before they might thrive in a planted tank? Would 4" potentially work?

I would think 4" is no problem, they are almost grown. You could probably start even smaller and cost less. I have seen some nice fish in a planted tank start smaller size and grow well. I have even raised some in planted environment.

perhaps some are - the others may simply feel they can raise healthier fish quicker, and to a larger size in a BB, and perhaps that's so) - the results are rewarding in a planted environment - the fish look better, so does the tank, and I believe you'll feel better about it yourself.

Its all in the eye of the beholder. Over the years my tastes have changed and I prefer seeing discus in a bb or biotope style setting rather than a heavy planted tank. Is much like seeing African Rift lake cichlids in a heavy planted tank. Something unatural to me. I ndo have planted tank but no discus.

[jimg]

I have had adult fish last years in a planted tank. the smaller juveniles always seemed to have problems.
Keep in mind, no matter how much you try to keep it clean, you cannot clean too much around the roots without killing the plants (which could be good places for nasties to multiply). Also unless your on a good balanced fertilizer schedule, the plants can suffer from too clean water.
I think if your discus come from a quality source and don't add any lfs fish you have better chances. A lot of problems can arise from when the algae gets heavy people add lfs algae eaters which can be carriers.
I don't mean to turn you off doing it, I'm just giving some points I found with my tanks.
IMHO there are reasons why most use bb with discus beside being easier to maintain.
Nothing is nicer than a planted tank with discus, but I found the nicest times are the fewest times. some can have the nicest tanks you'll ever see, but ask them in a couple years what happened!
After all I just said I would do it again, it is nice to see and it is a challenge!

[scottthomas]

bb with discus beside being easier to maintain.

You have a good point and not trying to diuade anyone from trying planted discus but parasites can be a nighmare to get out of a planted system. for example flukes. Just be sure to get a quality stock to start and quarantine everything that goes in that tank.

[Mxx]

I have had adult fish last years in a planted tank. the smaller juveniles always seemed to have problems.

What kinds of problems with the smaller juveniles, if you don't mind being specific?

And is it best in that case to quarantine AND medicinally treat (as some sort of a preventitive measure) any fish before they go into the tank? Including the discus, even if they come from a reputable local breeder?