i am on no 'fishing expedition', nor am i involved in any research other than my own as a long time tropical fish hobbyist/'profesional aquarist'
beefheart has been linked time and time again to severe health issues in other cichlids-most notably oscars, with fatty liver degeneration and lipid deposits throughout the fish's internal structure
most of you seem to be missing my central point/intent for discussion:
there are protien sources that are either equal or superior to beefheart, from a 'piscine physiology' p.o.v. that are NOT sourced from mammals
("best protien sources" ? compared to what ? earthworm ? egg ? roe ? )
"You have come to the right place for help with discus"
i'm not coming here looking for help, necessarily, and i find that statement, as presented,along with the beginning of your reply,somewhat patronizing-
i've never had issues with getting/keeping discus healthy, eating,-never seen a 'hunger strike', bloat, etc -i've had discus spawn in lfs settings,have an excellent 'track record' solving disease issues (particularly protozoal infections on wild imports) and i'm quite sure i'll have a spawning or three at home within the next 6 months, as two of my wild blues are already 'buddying up'
i'm simply challenging the notion of the superiority of beefheart over many of the available other high protien food sources,that aren't mammal based, including the overall performance of some of the 'high end' commercially prepared food mixes available today
(beefheart may be 'good'- i'll remain contending that it's not the 'best', and may present a potential health issue if used too extensively/at all, in ways that are not externally/visibly apparent-i certainly contend that one can achieve just as good results w/out ever incorporating beefheart in a feed)
i'm also challenging some of the criteria hobbyists/breeders use for determining the true quality/superiority of foods they use, when the only comparative tools used are purely anecdotal and based on external characteristics only,with no true comparative testing, for the most part-how many studies have been done via autopsy on discus to see/count lipid deposits in their tissues ? ( what about their organs? has anyone ever done a wide range examination of discus livers comparing their status on a beefheart vs non beefheart diet ? ) if beefheart is being fed-there HAS to be at least some internal lipid depositing present
i don't mean to be 'confrontational', but rather 'critical'-in the sense of being a 'critical thinker', as opposed to a 'criticizer'
personally, based on what i know/read/learned-i do have issues w/beefheart as a food-for ANY fish, and consider it completely inappropriate-for similiar reasons to the issues i have with so many hobbyists/aquarists feeding goldfish to sw piscivores
'one of the best' does not equal 'the best'
-my 0.02
Thats all great but what is that you have to gain from not using beefheart? The poor health of the fish that's lived so well and as long as any other. You worried about it suffering? What are you gaining from not using it? A fish with a nice healthy gut and liver?
Eddie
Hello....Hello, Knock Knock.......anybody!
You don't want to be confrontational, nor do I. Just momentarily appeared that way.
This probably is not going to do any good at all but,
I assumed you were establishing yourself as an expert in the field,
I may have misunderstood your interest in other peoples experience using beefheart as a food source,
but you said you looked everywhere for information but limited your research
and asked for help with proteins and enzymes specifically for discus.
You condemn beefheart without proof however I have to agree if over done it could
cause fatty deposits as well as any over fed foods. A fat discus is fat.
And now you are challenging every feeding regime of every discus hobbyist.
Not sure how anyone can answer all your questions. I don't think many of us
here have raised discus and then cut them open to see how healthy they are.
Again, scientific research specifically analyzing beefheart as a food source has been thoroughly tested and the results contradict your opinion.
The research was done specifically on beefheart because of the tremendous success hobbyists and breeders have had for decades using it as a food source.
Bill
While science is all good and so forth, I dont think life can be base so strictly on "studies" and "analyses". These methods have their important place, but life is also about passon, and the art of XXXX. For centuries, people from around the world used "anecdotal" experiences to define and refine things that drove their passion, be it bonsai, kois, goldfish, garden plants, canaries and budgies, and yes, even more recently the discus fish. While lipids and fatty liver disease are all valid concerns, but so is trial and error, and sticking with what works and what seems to "not" work. You can have all the studies you want, but sophisticated cultures and even empires were built on generaltional experiences, and that must count for something.
I think excessive use of anything, be it BH or even any of the so called "high quality" all-in-one processed fooods, is bad for the discus. But to say that having BH in the diet as part of a varied feeding regiment that has been proven through experience to yield very satisfactory results may be a bit too much. You can use science to refine things, but I dont think you should use science to discredit experience and wisdom. JMHO mike
You are probably right because it would be a good bet that discus need a balanced diet, not just to be fed the same thing always and only one thing.
Why would anyone feed only pure beefheart always?
I see beefheart as a security if a fish don't eat much of other things and need to put up a little weight, it works great for that.
does anyone feed only pure beefheart?
Does anyone hear even know any history on how beefheart first began being used in the discus hobby? You might be very surprised on the how and why of it. It had absolutely nothing to do with health, growth, ecomonics, or any other perceived benefits to the discus.
Mat
Well I thought it might be time to jump in the pool here. Turkey hearts. They are cheaper and easy to clean. TH fiber is smaller and thus easier for the discus to pass. I add medimucal to my mix to keep the fish regular. Dont laugh untill you have tried it.
I guess my two biggest concerns are hormones and improper handleing of the meat pre processed. Bactieria is something to watch for sure.
Ed
"There was no spoon"
Wow...from the architecture of this argument, it would seem to an unsuspecting newcomer that if one raises an opinion in opposition to the "norm" - without using attack language or encouraging boycotts, but simply stating an educated point of view - it is taken personally.
Some members are tactfully building the argument, and others are carelessly hammering away, their bottom-line being, "who cares?" If they don't care, why do they continue to take it as personally as someone who has put their life's savings in to beefheart stock?
Those are just the observations of an intelligent passer-by, and I am not arguing for or against beefheart (although the insightful information contained in this thread has me excited to try new protein sources that might actually be found in a natural habitat).
I'm just the neighbor on the porch, watching the couple next door fight on the lawn. Don't mind me.
Unless you can get at least ten people that have kept all of their Discus to maximum lifespan this convo will be fruitless.
Here is what we need for scientific proof.
1. Lifespan of domestic or wild Discus.
2. Hobbyist who have kept their Discus from juvenile to adulthood for entire lifespan.
3.Hobbyist who have fed Beefheart throughout fish lifespan and hobbyist who have not fed beefheart throughout fish lifespan.
If you are like me - and tend to keep fish for a year or two or three and then move the fish to a new owner - I'm sorry but our experience with the fish do not qualify.
Just as too much animal protein can proove to be harmful to human health in the long run. I tend to beleive the same to be true for Discus - but...I cannot back this up since I simply do not have the evidence to do so.
At the end of the day - feed whatever the H you feel like.
I remember many years back when the "experts" started to push the Turkey heart. I guess the dangers of handling raw poultry and Salmonella made most re-think it. I myself would never handle raw poultry, much less work around/in water that contained it. Tho all raw meat can be dangerous, poultry is much more dangerous. Not sure what a "normal" lifespan of a Discus is, and I am sure most don't. So to say that BH can take years off of a Discus's life, is absurd, as we do not know how long they should live to start with...Bill