New Wild Discus, a few questions

[JBurgo]

IMG_7116.JPGIMG_7117.JPGIMG_7118.JPGHi All,

This is my first post, I'm pretty sure I'll be needing some advice soon, so I might as well introduce myself before any emergencies.

I've been a fish-keeper all my life, but only over the past few years have I really become serious. Presently I have 3 tanks: 3' (canister) community with a pair of Angels, Rainbows, Cardinals etc, 4' (sump) Cichlid and 8' (sump) Discus.

I have had the 8' tank for 2 years. The goal was Discus. Short term: Cheap LFS Discus. Mid Term: A few pairs of larger breeding quality fish. Longer Term: A view to some wilds (which I absolutely adore, but dared not consider- for cost and experience). I had my share of experiences and illnesses associated with young, small Discus and cut my teeth growing them out. So about 3 months ago I got 2 pairs of large Turks, exactly what I had wanted for the Mid Term goal, they were both spawning up either end of the tank (but eating the eggs), I didn't really care because they were still adolescents.

A week ago though I had an opportunity to get some wilds, the seller was down-sizing and had several fish in cramped conditions really wanting to get rid of them, and I couldn't resist the opportunity. They came earlier in the process than I wanted, and I wasn't as prepared as I wanted to be, but I have them now. They came a bit thin, with some signs of worms /parasites probably due to stress, but eating hungrily. They all settled in and coloured up quickly, and I put a wormer through them (Wormer Plus). This cleared up their poo and that's all good, but being a bit thin I've been giving beef heart daily plus a bit of pellets and flake to try to get some bulk back on them. This is putting some stress on my system with the Nitrates getting up to 40-80 (mid orange), so I might back that down to every second day now.

My questions are about PH and water changes. I keep hearing so many conflicting opinions. My town-water is 7.2 and my Aquarium sits at 6.8 naturally. The fish came from a chemically induced 6 environment. I do 1/3 temperature matched water changes weekly. The tank is understocked with 7 moderate sized Discus in an 8' tank. I would like to start adding some Peat in the filter to shift the PH a bit naturally, but my concern is stressing the fish when I do water changes. I don't want to start using PH down, but should I use it to get the town-water down to the Aquarium's stable level to avoid shock (especially if I get the Aquarium's level down a bit further with the Peat)? I am only considering adding Peat to avoid issues with the wilds, ATM they are colourful and active with no signs of stress. I know enough not to plow in and start making huge changes. But at the same time I have no hesitation in changing my set-up to suit them in slow considered steps, after all, I will do whatever it takes.

I have a fairly simple set-up, river sand bottom, which is a coarse sand to light gravel, moderate to light planting, two medium sized mangrove root structures at either end, couple of clown loaches and a small population of Endlers for detritus control, I don't use CO2 or UV or anything like that yet and I like to stay away from chemicals wherever possible.

Any advice appreciated,
Jas.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jas and welcome to Simply. First off your ph with the wilds is fine so suggest not messing with it. I would not mess with peat. Some folks have had success with peat and others say it irritates the fish. I would suggest adding rooibos tea to the water. It is good for the fish and stains the water a nice golden color. Buy it loose (from Amazon) and add several tablespoons to a media bag and place it in the sump.

You definitely need to get some bulk on these fish. You might consider adding small live red wigglers to the diet. The fish will love them and it will not foul the water. One note of concern is the nitrates. Does your source water have nitrates? You really want nitrates at 10 or less. Make sure your test kit is not expired and you are following the directions exactly on the package.
Pat

[jmf3460]

Welcome to the forum Jas!! I am confused you say your set up is river sand but this picture is gravel.

[Kyla]

i would have jumped at having those fish too! love the mix of colours. fingers crossed they fatten up and do well in our tank.

i think trying to feed them heavily, esp with beef heart, in a tank with gravel substrate is going to make it difficult to clean the bottom area. i dont feed beefheart but i do use a homemade mix like it which is messy and i wouldnt feed it to my guys with gravel on the bottom because the little particles would get lodged in between the gravel spaces and foul the water. even tho they r already fairly large, i'd up the water changes to daily with a gravel cleaning while feeding beefheart. ive been doing daily wc with my guys lately and the love it. it def cant hurt, esp if they r on the skinny side and came from a stressful crowded tank.

discus can thrive in all sorts of ph levels. but u dont want to expose them to ph swings during wc. i would recommend to age-test ur water to see what the ph settles at after u have aerated a bucket of tap water for a day (test ph right from tap then after aerating for a day and see if there is a difference between readings). what is the kh in ur water? if the tanks ph is lower than ur tap ph it could be an indicator that u need more frequent wc to maintain the ph in the tank. with nitrates that high it also suggests more wc r needed (unless as pat suggests u may have nitrates in ur tap water).

[JBurgo]

Thanks for the comments, it's great to have an experienced second opinion.

It's called river sand where I bought it, it means it was collected on a riverbed, it's gravelly on the top and gets to a coarse sand underneath, for intents and purposes with detritus it's probably the same as gravel.

I have an API test kit, with good expiry date, and I'm doing all the shaking and waiting, but it doesn't have hardness, I'll have to see if I can buy a hardness test because that seems to be the important one.

The source water has no Nitrates, Nitrites or Ammonia.

I made another test this morning and I'm getting 20 on the Nitrates, I had done a gravel vac including removing the driftwood structures and doing underneath them within 12 hours of the previous test, which may have affected it. I'll up the changes to 2 a week with vacuums (it's a big tank), while I'm overfeeding. Normally, I don't have a Nitrate problem, but I always understock (which is the reason I got such a big tank, I like water stability and more natural behaviour).

I feel like I'm doing a bit of a rescue with them and I'm concerned for them to put on weight too, I'm very lucky to be able to have them though and there was no choice with how they came, wilds are very rare here, and for the money I spent I'm very nervous about this. The upside is that their poo is good and their behaviour is happy and hungry.

[Second Hand Pat]

Jas, nice to hear things are improving. Would definitely keep up the twice (or better ) per week water changes and vacuuming. I can't help thinking your river sand/rock might be adding to the nitrate problem by harboring too much food. Would you consider changing it out for pool filter sand?
Pat

[JBurgo]

I would be prepared to change out the gravel for pool filter sand, is that what you use? The fish will see food better too, although the darker shade substrate gives subdued lighting, which I'm pretty sure the fish prefer. I'll consider anything at the moment, because this was a split decision that I had to run with and I didn't get the time to set everything up.

The problem is I'm worried to do such a major tank overhaul with the fish in their current state, I probably shouldn't consider it for a few months until I get some weight on them, so they can handle any toxins a bit better. If I stir up any pollutants I could lose them. I'm even concerned about vacuuming too deeply ATM. Any suggestions for how to go about removing it, a bit at a time I suppose over a few water changes, till you get to bare bottom.

Does the Rooibos Tea reduce PH and soften the water? I'm at about 700 litres, how much do you use and how dark is it?

Anything else to fatten them up with? They like the protein pellets from the Cichlids, that's got to be good. I can't imagine flake adds weight but they really enjoy that. They also love the bloodworms, but I'm concerned for the water quality to give too much.

[Ryan925]

I would be prepared to change out the gravel for pool filter sand, is that what you use? The fish will see food better too, although the darker shade substrate gives subdued lighting, which I'm pretty sure the fish prefer. I'll consider anything at the moment, because this was a split decision that I had to run with and I didn't get the time to set everything up.

The problem is I'm worried to do such a major tank overhaul with the fish in their current state, I probably shouldn't consider it for a few months until I get some weight on them, so they can handle any toxins a bit better. If I stir up any pollutants I could lose them. I'm even concerned about vacuuming too deeply ATM. Any suggestions for how to go about removing it, a bit at a time I suppose over a few water changes, till you get to bare bottom.

Does the Rooibos Tea reduce PH and soften the water? I'm at about 700 litres, how much do you use and how dark is it?

Anything else to fatten them up with? They like the protein pellets from the Cichlids, that's got to be good. I can't imagine flake adds weight but they really enjoy that. They also love the bloodworms, but I'm concerned for the water quality to give too much.

I recently went through a sub change. It seems like such a daunting task but really wasn't all that bad. Once I saw the results in the fish I knew I made the right choice. I deep vac'd my gravel with each wc. I though I was keeping it really clean. When I removed my gravel I found out how truly filthy it was.

I wouldn't recommend doing it with fish in. I took mine out and put them in a 30G tote with air stone and heater. I then removed all gravel and wiped the tank out really well. Then added the pfs. Refilled tank and let it run for an hour or 2 then added fish back in

You may be right that you need to stabilize them before moving them. I'd def follow the recommendations and increase wc frequency for now

Beautiful fish by the way

[woopaul5]

Thanks for the comments, it's great to have an experienced second opinion.

It's called river sand where I bought it, it means it was collected on a riverbed, it's gravelly on the top and gets to a coarse sand underneath, for intents and purposes with detritus it's probably the same as gravel.

I have an API test kit, with good expiry date, and I'm doing all the shaking and waiting, but it doesn't have hardness, I'll have to see if I can buy a hardness test because that seems to be the important one.

The source water has no Nitrates, Nitrites or Ammonia.

I made another test this morning and I'm getting 20 on the Nitrates, I had done a gravel vac including removing the driftwood structures and doing underneath them within 12 hours of the previous test, which may have affected it. I'll up the changes to 2 a week with vacuums (it's a big tank), while I'm overfeeding. Normally, I don't have a Nitrate problem, but I always understock (which is the reason I got such a big tank, I like water stability and more natural behaviour).

I feel like I'm doing a bit of a rescue with them and I'm concerned for them to put on weight too, I'm very lucky to be able to have them though and there was no choice with how they came, wilds are very rare here, and for the money I spent I'm very nervous about this. The upside is that their poo is good and their behaviour is happy and hungry.

Welcome to the forum! As others has stated I'd not worry much about pH, stability is the key to success. Definitely ditch the gravel bottom and replace with PFS and as Ryan stated remove the fish when you do this. Personally I'd ditch the plants also, IMO for plants to thrive and discus to thrive contradict each other.

Roobios tea will not lower your pH but it will bring anti fungal properties to the water. On how dark it will get is all up to you. Pat and Jacklyn will be able to help you on how much to use per gallon.

I'd buy a 2nd nitrate kit. From my experience the API kit the oranges look to close to each other for me to determine what ppm it's at. Personally I use a salifert kit for nitrates but nutrafin is another company that has a good kit available. Regardless of how you stock I'd recommend several water changes a week. While I was at home with my discus I followed a 3,2,2,3 water change schedule but under my parents care they have been doing a water change every third day.

Not quite sure where you are located at but majoirity of us use (Brewmaster) Al's freeze dried black worms. They are high in protein and I'm pretty sure they are crack to discus.

http://www.aquaticsuppliers.com/ or http://www.blackworms.com.au/

Hope this helps and love the fish in the top photo to the far right. Best of luck - Paul

[JBurgo]

Tank water results for KH = 35.8 (2 drops), GH = 107.4 (6 drops). API test kit. I'll have to look up what that means, but it seems to be at least in the ball park.

Reason I'm so concerned about doing a gravel change is that I killed a beautiful breeding pair of angel fish once when I did exactly that, at least killed the female and the male fretted and died a few months later. I moved them with the bulk of the tank water, plants etc to a large storage box, kept the canister unchanged, put them all back in a few hours after it settled, she was dead the next day. The Cichlids on the other hand get their tank thoroughly done over constantly, they're tough fish.

[woopaul5]

Not that it really matters but do you have a TDS meter?

Most people with me included seem to think that we need to replicate the amazon when taking care of wilds but there are several members on here that are raising wilds from tap with hard water and moderately high TDS. The common ground I see is stability and clean water in healthy discus.

[JBurgo]

I don't have a TDS meter, should I invest in one? They seem relatively inexpensive. But I'm the kind of guy who'd rather just do a water change than measure something. In the same time, what you're probably going to find out needs doing, is already done. That being said, it's good to know your parameters and set up a routine that needs to be done initially, I measure less when it's running, but it's just to make sure it's all kicking as I think it should be.

I like a few plants, they're not as important as the fish for me (I know this is taste), and they need to be hardy, I don't use CO2 or any additives for them. I keep the tank at 29 deg, and most plants don't like that, but the few that I have are doing OK and actually growing, so I support them. I also like areas of open space for the fish to swim between structures (and clumps of plants), I think they like that. I'll never let the plants overtake the tank.

The Discus on the far right in the first photo is a small Uatamu Blue, he's one of the healthier ones even though he's small. I really like the one on the bottom left too, he came as a Green, but I think he's a Brown, maybe even a Coupe (not sure how to spell it), but every now and then he gets the most vivid reds through him. I also like the Tefes who are taking a small interest in each other, although one is fairly thin and I have my fingers crossed there.

I'm in Australia, so I don't think I'll be able to get any food from the States unfortunately, because that food looks great and great value.

[woopaul5]

TDS meter isn't absolutely needed for discus. Prior to purchasing wild discus I got into dwarf shrimp and the meter was just added benifit when I wanted to replicate amazon waters. Theres a lot more people on here who have been raising their wilds in tap water with a higher pH with no issues so this may be something I might switch to in the future but tap here in AZ is really hard.

The plant thing is just my opinion. You'll see on here and all across the internet that people can make it work but I just didn't have the patience when I had a planted discus tank. I stunted several juvies and a few got sick from the dosing regime I had.

Try http://www.blackworms.com.au/ this is the direct source for Al's fdbw

[JBurgo]

Thanks Paul, that's great, I was buying that exact product for $15 for 5 grams and using it as a treat, at that price I can use it more as part of the staple. What percentage of the diet should it be?

Actually, after they settle in and bulk up, any recommendations for diet as they grow out?

My intentions are frozen beef heart every 2nd day (2 blocks), frozen blood worms or frozen brine shrimp once or twice a week (one block). Daily: a variation of Vitalis Discus Pellets, Tropical Wild Discus Gran, Tetracolor Tropical Granules, Flake and /or some of the Cichlid's Protein Pellets. Generally one major feed per day, but I usually spread it over 1/2 hour to an hour giving little bits at a time (going away and coming back) to help with consumption to keep the tank cleaner. I usually give a small pinch of flake in the morning, wouldn't really call it a feed though, just enough to encourage them out of their corner for the day. Should I be feeding more than once a day at their size? (I wouldn't have thought so, but it sounds like you guys feed your fish a number of times a day).

[Phillydubs]

Just to chime in... Sorry, I have been clicking on and off this thread and you were getting great advice so I never really posted...

I'm one of the guys that Paul referred to as being ok with keeping my wilds in good clean aged tap a bit of prime and not really testing anything or worrying what was reading at what level.

I have 5 wilds in a 40 breeder now since late march early april. I age my tap 24 hrs. I spalsh some prime in before I start my siphon. They get a 50% water change with the sand all mixed up every other day. They eat Al's FDBW and knock on wood they have been beyond stellar. Growing, coloring, not an issue in sight!