Line 3
Can you tell me what is needed to test these water parameters. And where to get them. I am currently only using a API test kit.
There has been quite a few debates of whirling, but non conclusive. I decided to take a scientific aproach to it. Collect at least 50 different testomonies better more) about whirling with detailed information so we can determine trough statistic possible causes (enviromental/parasites). It would be best, if everyone with this experience woukd fill this questionare.
1. type (heckel/green/blue/domestic asian/domestic german/domestic local
2. size of aquarium, bb/planted/biotope and filtration
3. ph,gh, kh, T, conductivity,nitrate. how many wcs per week (in %)
4. which kind of food (flakes/granul, frozen, FD, live) and how many feeds per day
5. any treatment prior to whirling
6. your treatment of the diseased fish.
Thanks.
Line 3
Can you tell me what is needed to test these water parameters. And where to get them. I am currently only using a API test kit.
1. Domestic, Stendker via Hans.
2. 75 gallon grow out tank, bb, sponge filters
3. ph-7.4 gh-160, kh-90, nitrate- minimal, 75% daily water changes.
4. Homemade beefheart/seafood mix. Al's FDBW. Angels Plus flakes.
5. None
6. Euthanasia.
Personally I think you should focus on dissolved gasses..
Al
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Al Sabetta
Simplydiscus LLC Owner
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Can I suggest three more?
7. Water aged or not aged.
8. City water or private well.
9. Time of year.
This survey is international. Most of Europeans have city water, so i felt it would be redundant. As far as aging and time of the year i know what are you hinting- chloramines/pH swing/microbubbles. Most of the water is also aged, but i wil ask that too. One scandinavian guy had this problem, he only did 30% per week. Whirling stopped when he added salt to his tank. The affected fish were Unini heckels.
Mark N, at least Ph, hardness and T.
You should also ask how long they have had the fish.
..and where the fish came from(pet shop,wholesaler/importer.
I agree with Dans item suggestions as well.
Al
AquaticSuppliers.comFoods your Discus will Love!!!
>>>>>Want a great forum? Participate in it and make one.. it doesnt happen on its own...
we need help..
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...and-Hard-Place
.
Al Sabetta
Simplydiscus LLC Owner
Aquaticsuppliers.com
I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images
As far as i know its always one discus, who starts whirling then it spreads. If it was the water issue, all of them would start at approximatelly same time. I suspect it has to be a parasite issue- Cryptobia lubilans, Myxozoa infection from the live/frozen food or some other parasites.
what if more than one discus have it but the weakest one shows symptoms first, followed by any others who carry it?
The weakest will be always the first infected, stress and all. Whatever it is, its contagious and it always spreads, but not to all discus. Some may have had aquaried immunity. For example, one scandinavian guy had a group of Unini heckles. Bu only 3 got the disease and he cured it with a salt bath. As far i remember, Pat Husband had it (with Tefe and Unini heckel), the brazilian guy with Cuipea and Farebox, again with Unini.
AquaticSuppliers.comFoods your Discus will Love!!!
>>>>>Want a great forum? Participate in it and make one.. it doesnt happen on its own...
we need help..
https://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...and-Hard-Place
.
Al Sabetta
Simplydiscus LLC Owner
Aquaticsuppliers.com
I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images
a few more you might want to check out:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-the-rest-safe
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...t-eating/page2
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...50#post1114050
Ex-President-North American Discus Association-NADA
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Since we don't really know if the cause is animal or mineral, the data collected shouldn't discount possibilities. If you make assumptions and limit the gathering of information, you will get results that tend to validate your preconceptions.
There does seem to be an association with WCs. Who knows, it could be 'Bends of the Brain' from nitrogen gas coming out of solution in the bloodstream. If its a neurotoxin in the water supply, I would expect to see a geographical factor associated with the use of pesticides or pharmaceuticals. These are just wild guesses, which is why collecting some info is a good idea... maybe our guesses can get a little better.
Looking at this as a veterinarian, whirling disease leads me to believe it is purely a neurologic disease of the brain. The fish I have witnessed whirling appear to be having a seizure or something very similar to a seizure.
Seizures are the result of an abnormal area of the brain which becomes hyper-excitable when exposed to some sort of external stimuli. In dogs with epilepsy, seizures can be triggered by excitement, fear, loud noises, bright lights, etc.
With whirling, my theory is that the fish has a brain lesion caused by either an infectious agent (protozoa, virus, prion, etc) or maybe even some genetic abnormality. The seizure activity is then triggered by external stimuli (large water changes, dissolved gases, ph swings, conduntivity swings, bright light, etc).
Of course this is just me speculating as a veterinarian and a scientist. I have no evidence of any of this but it does seem like a reasonable explanation.
Al, you're right in that the only way to find out is to test affected fish. Many affected fish, not just a couple. It would take a pathologist a lot of time and effort to study a large number of affected fish to try and isolate the brain lesion responsible for the symptoms. However, there's not much financial incentive for a pathology lab to undertake such an endeavor.